A lot of known people dont QUARANTINE!!!

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pseudorand

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I think you misunderstand the term epizootic. Propagule pressure in closed systems means there is a limit to what innate disease resistance will help. At a tipping point, the mere presence of huge numbers of infective agents overwhelm any resistance.
Where do the huge numbers of infectious agents come from? Sure, if you drop a 3" fish at the height of infectiousness in a 10 gallon with a bunch of other fish also stressed from transport and a new environment, they'll all get sick. But a fish with a mild case of the sniffles in a 200 is less likely to infect the healthy fish already in that tank and may never develop full-blown disease, no?

Both scenarios seem possible, but I doubt we have ways to measure just how many infectious agents a fish brings to the tank or how to predict if they'll be able to reach that critical mass. Us QT-hesitant folks have simply notice the later scenario better fits our personal experiences. Perhaps it's the more common scenario.

Barrett Christie has a calculator that shows how a single Neobenedenia egg can cause a virulent infection.
Calculator? So the "evidence" is a model rather than an experiment? I do get how a butterfly can cause a hurricane in theory, but I'd be willing to bet it's never happened. Initialisation conditions matter, there are a lot of them, and we probably can't measure most of them. That's why models fail.

Well, I just want to make one final point - this isn’t just my opinion. The Association of Zoos and Aquariums mandates that new fish acquisitions be quarantined. This is a condition of accreditation. If every major public aquarium in North America does this, is it wise to dismiss the process out of hand?

Jay
A trained ichthyologist at a public aquarium working full time and with more resources and equipment likely does QT quite effectively. But many of us in the hobby who set up a second tank for QT get different results. I'm not saying QT is bad, just that it may not be effective at the scale and experience level of us novice hobbyists. I'm not sure what we're doing wrong, but know it's something based on (lack of) results.

And no, I don't buy the "everyone's doing it so it must be good" argument.
 
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brandon429

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Anyone with counter opinions on quarantine should be doing proof work in the disease forum


that place is a neat claims filter, as as the counter-opining comes from folks in the safe zone, ie outside that forum not helping anyone live time where we can see the logged results of their claims.
 
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brandon429

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Readers


dont buy into doubters who haven’t logged one single job on file here, and track this forum daily for new help posts to see how important quarantine is:

notice who does all the work there, and who never does. Go read fifteen pages in, see who never does work there and who does


this post we are in is nine pages of counter point, from the armchair safe zone


now in that forum is half a million bucks of people needing help live time, and reporting outcomes, who’s doing the work there? The opinion writers?
 
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MnFish1

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I'm a big fan of PaulB's method of not quarantining and providing your fish a healthy, varied diet of fresh/live/frozen foods. I've never quarantined a single fish and ever since I feed them a quality diet (no flakes or pellets at all), I haven't lost a single fish due to disease. ''Fun'' fact: when I fed mainly ''good quality'' pellets and flakes, a bunch of my fish were constantly sick and struggling and eventually died.

Now my fish are fat, active and look great. One of my flasher wrasses had ich a few months ago after a small rescape of the tank. Within a few days the ich was gone and that fish is doing just fine. A month and a half ago I bought a wrasse from a tank with a not too healthy looking fish in there as well. Again, no quarantine. That wrasse is doing fantastic and it hasn't caused any sort of disease in my tank either.

It actually surprised me how strict most people are about quarantining on here. I don't know of anyone in my country that quarantines their fish and those are serious reefers with impressive tanks and fish.
Most people 'on here' do not quarantine - based on several polls. Some people are zealous in their defense of QT and some are zealous in their defense of not QT'ing. Very few people define 'what QT means' - i.e. with observation only, observation and treat for disease, prophylactic treatment, etc. Then there is the 'duration question' - 1 week 2 weeks 4 weeks - etc.

My opinion - buy fish at a reputable dealer - who has done the observation QT for you, and treated for any disease. (there are LFS - and mail order places that do that). Make sure the fish is healthy before you buy it. Keep your stocking density low, and resist the attempt to 'add just one more fish'. I haven't added another fish to my tank for 1.5 years or so. The cheapest fish is often times the most likely to have a disease. If you're not constantly adding something, you dont have to worry about introducing something into your tank. I do not believe the theory about feeding live foods, adding bacteria, etc helps maintain fish disease free. The key is keeping them well fed in a stable tank.
 

MnFish1

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Doubters: I bet you none of you today starts a help thread there ~ you sit back and let Jay work it right? that’s how it always is, we critique him outside that forum, but not in it
Jay has also requested that people not add random advice to the forum, I believe, to avoid confusing people that are getting 10 different recommendations.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Where do the huge numbers of infectious agents come from? Sure, if you drop a 3" fish at the height of infectiousness in a 10 gallon with a bunch of other fish also stressed from transport and a new environment, they'll all get sick. But a fish with a mild case of the sniffles in a 200 is less likely to infect the healthy fish already in that tank and may never develop full-blown disease, no?

Both scenarios seem possible, but I doubt we have ways to measure just how many infectious agents a fish brings to the tank or how to predict if they'll be able to reach that critical mass. Us QT-hesitant folks have simply notice the later scenario better fits our personal experiences. Perhaps it's the more common scenario.


Calculator? So the "evidence" is a model rather than an experiment? I do get how a butterfly can cause a hurricane in theory, but I'd be willing to bet it's never happened. Initialisation conditions matter, there are a lot of them, and we probably can't measure most of them. That's why models fail.


A trained ichthyologist at a public aquarium working full time and with more resources and equipment likely does QT quite effectively. But many of us in the hobby who set up a second tank for QT get different results. I'm not saying QT is bad, just that it may not be effective at the scale and experience level of us novice hobbyists. I'm not sure what we're doing wrong, but know it's something based on (lack of) results.

And no, I don't buy the "everyone's doing it so it must be good" argument.
Thanks for your input.
Jay
 

MnFish1

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I personally do not care what anyone 'does', but the only thing that has any scientific basis or reasoning behind it is a method of QT (At least observation).

Any other 'method' is to me works until it doesn't. There are countless people who post - I never QT'd - then I lost every fish. Every fish tank is different. Various fish have varying immunities to CI and velvet. Every supplier is different. I think this is why different people have different results without QT.

Every zoo/aquarium in the country has some kind of biosecurity program. I do not know of one that just 'dumps fish in', or corals, or plants, or animals, etc. If they spend millions of dollars doing it, there must be a reason for it. FYI - I'm not advocating prophylactic treatment for potential disease.
 

WVNed

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I once had a few long chats with a hospital infectious disease specialist. I met him because my father caught a nosocomial infection that was very hard to treat while having his hip replaced. We talked about other things like how my co workers children kept getting MERSA.

While I found his points a view interesting and informative they did not change how my family went about our daily lives.

I find the same level of common sense I use with my family members and our other pets applies to my aquariums.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Jay has also requested that people not add random advice to the forum, I believe, to avoid confusing people that are getting 10 different recommendations.
That’s a fine line. I do appreciate people weighing in with additional information - for example, I had always thought praziquantel kills flukes. Somebody clarified for me that it actually just paralyzes the fluke and they drop off and can’t get back to a fish.
However, bad advice can be a real issue. People seeking information have a tendency to take the easiest path, and sometimes, like with quarantine, it isn’t easy. So advice about adding some “reef safe tonic” or “feeding the fish well” gets accepted before my long, drawn out lectures do (grin)
Jay
 
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MnFish1

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Absolutely...Velvet and some of the more severe stuff - warrants more action, but the question then should be asked - how did it happen in the first place? Either....you failed to keep a proper environment or you failed to buy a healthy fish. Fish - don't just "get sick", like people - theres a reason.
Yes, so what do you do about velvet and some of the more 'severe stuff'? Fish do just 'get sick' just like people and every other organism on earth. Where would you get the idea that fish don't 'get sick'. There are probably hundreds of studies exposing fish to various disease, and depending on the stocking density, the level of 'disease' that was inoculated, even healthy fish will 'get sick' (and some won't).
 

Hot2na

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" I had always thought praziquantel kills flukes. " Somebody clarified for me that it actually just paralyzes the fluke and they drop off and can’t get back to a fish."
...exactly ,, that's why it's NOT my treatment of choice for flukes.... neither is copper
 

lynn.reef.nerd

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I don't know 10 people with tanks. I don't know anyone here with a salt tank and I don't join reef clubs or any other kind of club so I can't coach anyone. But I did write a book. :cool:

I also helped start a number of LFSs and wholesalers here in NY but that was many years ago when I was discovering how to do this as there was no internet or computers.

We can only try to teach by example if anyone wants to learn our systems. We don't do this for a living. At least I don't and for me at least this is just one of many hobbies and not the one I spend most of my time on. An immune tank doesn't require hardly any work.

Aren't you a part of WAMAS? That's a reef club.
 

Jay Hemdal

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" I had always thought praziquantel kills flukes. " Somebody clarified for me that it actually just paralyzes the fluke and they drop off and can’t get back to a fish."
...exactly ,, that's why it's NOT my treatment of choice for flukes.... neither is copper
Not sure I understand. Copper isn’t a fluke treatment, but praziquantel works if dosed properly. It is just semantics - I now know that prazi doesn’t directly kill flukes, but a fluke that drops off the fish cannot return, and they eventually die. Neobenedenia flukes are best controlled by hyposalinity.
Jay
 

Paul B

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Aren't you a part of WAMAS? That's a reef club.
Yes I am. But I said I don't "join" Reef clubs. I didn't join WAMAS. I was given an Honorary membership because I spoke there at one of their meetings. I think I am also a member of two other reef clubs because of speaking there. But I never joined one. Even here in New York where I live I don't belong to a club but they invite me to their meetings as a guest. I have gone to maybe 3 of them since they invented the things. When it comes to fish I am a loner and do my own thing. :cool:

Posted February 20, 2010
The speakers at WAMAS meetings are always good. However, Paul was awesome today. I learned so much and he is hilarious.

Thank you to all the officers and Paul and Paul's Wife!
Posted February 20, 2010
I completely agree! I normally get tired after sitting so long, but Paul had me in stitches during his whole presentation!


dont buy into doubters who haven’t logged one single job on file here, and track this forum daily for new help posts to see how important quarantine is:
Brandon, I went there a few times and I am not sure what you would like me to do there as I don't believe fish should ever get sick. That forum is all about fish that were allowed to get sick and I have no advice for that. My only advice is to get the fish to where they never get sick so you never have to go on the disease forum. That place is a good place for Jay or someone who specializes in curing sick fish.

I have not had to cure a fish in years and if I do buy a sick fish, my old school methods ( that work) would not be taken seriously there because I disagree with many of the newer methods.

On this thread (i think) I mentioned diatom filters and didn't get one response but I never have a sick fish and have cured many. I also mentioned copper and quinicrine hydrocloride (I think) as that will cure ich in a day and also didn't get one response.

Many people, especially Nobs have all sorts of remedies and people are drawn to new technologies weather they work or not or worked once so I would rather stay away from the arguments.
 
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brandon429

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In my opinion its a higher bar for science to seek what works for 1000 other folks vs hone what works in our own tanks. The details found in the disease forum are today's top best science in what works for others, that's a nice way to put it without downing everyone's personal achievements and I honestly do believe Pauls method of tank aging and feed and innate skill makes his not need the preps we all typically need. Im never even going to own a reef fish lol ive inserted myself into a chat where i have no players, still Im a pattern watcher and can readily easily direct new cyclers to the disease forum for what they need or as a prediction for what happens when we all skip preps our first go.
 

Paul B

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The details found in the disease forum are today's top best science in what works for others, that's a nice way to put it without downing everyone's personal achievements
Of course I respectfully disagree. The mere existence of a disease forum dictates that that can't be the result of the "Top Best Science" anything. The Top best science should keep us off the disease forum.

I can see fish getting tumors, pop eye, swim bladder issues or neurological issues, but never communicable things as a healthy immune system would exclude that.

Maybe there should be a "Health" forum where healthy fish and tanks are. Where people can learn ways to keep fish healthy without resorting to un natural, complicated methods. Where the fish never get sick and just live out their life without any mention of disease or discomfort. Where the fish die of old age and maybe spawn along the way.

The foods that successful non disease tanks eat along with the methods used such as aquascaping form health and maybe non chemical water conditioners such as algae scrubbers, skimmers etc.

Fish of hex definitely quarantined his fish. Go back to the videos when the 300 first started.
I have no Idea what this post means?
 

brandon429

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Gotta disagree, can’t find a better place on the web to help the masses, literally qt and fallow preps are the best and when it’s not, other methods won’t need to be stickied in the disease forum as the masses will be participating so well in the thread it will stay kicked to the top itself


we have to always always balance claims made vs who does daily work in the disease forum. Humblefish would also clearly be someone who meets this high bar for replication of claims. Rare, two folks and two forums on the web for the info…


what works in our tanks and becomes the sole example of a successful method absolutely must be counter balanced in context by what works for a thousand tanks logged already.


this thread will grow in pages today, yet with every new post in the disease forum there are two methods going to be used, uncontested by alternate example we can click and examine for patterns.
 

ReefRusty

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Either way there is still no guarantee that your fish will never get some sort of disease if its QT or not.. you could follow it to the T and BANG!! fish gets ich or something else.. or it may never get anything, much the same if you dont opt to QT a fish. Nothing is ever a garentee
 
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