Ich is something you can manage with a healthy tank, healthy diet and low stress.
Can brook or velvet be managed after being introduced to the healthiest tank?
Can brook or velvet be managed after being introduced to the healthiest tank?
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I could have, I don't remember but I did frequent a few wholesalers because as I said I had one of the few tanks around and I got to know the few Lfs owners and would go with them to pick out their fish and I would also pick mine.Did you have anything to do with that wholesaler in nassau , hempstead to be specific...circa 1978 ? when I was working for and helped set up and build "pets plus" in freeport ...I snuck in their one day after work and stocked up on stuff for my home tank..Guy who ran the wholesaler thought the stuff I picked was for pets plus...
Of course. It's the same process and immune tanks are immune from all communicable diseases. They have to be or they wouldn't exist for many years or decades.Ich is something you can manage with a healthy tank, healthy diet and low stress.
Can brook or velvet be managed after being introduced to the healthiest tank?
Your mom is 70 and has never worn a seatbelt. And is apparently no worse for the wear (or lack thereof, pardon the pun). Of course there are situations where a seatbelt is the difference between life and death. But most of us won't ever be in that situation.This topic reminds me of my mom and seatbelts. No matter what stats or logic you use, she won't wear a seatbelt. Swears in a bad accident she will be trapped in the car and burn to death, and would be much better off being thrown from the vehicle. Over 70 years old and there is still no chance of changing her mind.
Why would we think there is any validity in comparing an 180,000 gallon system to our home tanks, the biggest of which are probably three orders of magnitude smaller?I can give an example of ten tanks on a 180,000 gallon central system where my quarantine process has worked to avoid all epizootics for over six years (grin). I've only had one case of Cryptocaryon where I lost fish - a stand alone deep reef Caribbean exhibit that had a Spanish Flag fish in it that I was "scared" to run through copper. I eventually saved that fish, with copper, but lost a Bank's butterflyfish and some others.
Jay
Photos of my tank to demonstrate my opinion. I took these yesterday.I have been reefing for almost 40 years... I do not quarantine and have never had an issue until recently... Quarantine is a personal choice, if it makes those who do it more comfortable, then its good for them. For those who don't feel they need to.... great.. Why is it a point of contention? There is no correct answer. Those who do, are not better or smarter then those who don't!
However... beware.. there are venders that will sell you infested acros and diseased fish without a second thought... Those venders even advertise on R2R..
It seems to me coral and fish pests are on the rise...
Why would we think there is any validity in comparing an 180,000 gallon system to our home tanks, the biggest of which are probably three orders of magnitude smaller?
It works like this: that system has a number of fish sourced through the very same dealers used in the pet trade. The size of the tank actually INCREASES the risk of an epizootic from all of the shipments it took to fill it. Unlike a home aquarist who might add 10 fish to their tank in say, 4 batches, this system had hundreds of fish added over scores of shipments - much riskier. It is known that Neobenedenia can cause an epizootic from just a single egg. Obviously, our quarantine process didn’t let that happen, over multiple shipments. N isn’t one, it is the number of fish. I don’t need to risk fish by running a non-quarantine control as I had positive diagnosis of both cryptocaryon and Neobenedenia in incoming fish, and this was resolved by the quarantine process. If I hadn’t quarantined, I would have had epizootics in my main system, guaranteed. Same thing happens in home aquariums.Also, this tank didn't get diseases after QT. We have know way to know if it would have without QT. And even if there was a control, that would be a sample size of 2.
Perhaps more importantly, "QT" is likely a whole lot more complex that dumping something in another tank with some copper for a month. What are all the steps necessary, and which are really necessary vs myth and legend.
It's been amazing so far with no ich. And yes us qurantine people feed our fish just as good as non qurantine people.What's quarantine? ;Joyful;Happy
On a more serious note, I understand the reasoning behind people quarantining new fish.
I've never done it. First of all because when I started in the hobby I didn't have the resources or space to do it.
Secondly, so far I've had no issues as long as my fish are well fed (in other words find other methods to lower your nutrient levels in your tank besides starving your fish). Healthy, well fed fish I find tend to rarely fall ill to whatever it is quarantining is supposed to avoid.
In my opinion, a "sterile" tank devoid of any pathogens is as illusionary as humans living in a sterile bubble...
On the other hand, I have read the stories about people who have had no issue not quarantining new fish but ended up regretting it. Not sure why this happens... maybe not feeding healthy fish enough?
There is no fact checker on YouTube. There is also a large amount of BS on the internet.Hello guys I am so so so confused. Should i quarantine or not? A lot of “famous” people on youtube like reef dork, inappropriate reefer, and fish of hex dont quarantine their fish and they have proof of how successful their reef tanks are.
Based on my experience I am an advocate of 1-4 months of quarantining your fish, because i have personally lost thousands and thousands of dollars after not quarantining before on my Fowlr and my nano reef years back.
Now once again I am seeing a lot of people not quarantining fish. I just started my new aquarium and I heard before that I should quarantine before putting it on my DT but what if there are 0 live stocks in there other than a quarantined sps and CUC.
Just after I got my last Hippo tang he got this white spot on his head. Weird.About a month ago, that Hippo tang was suddenly covered in some weird 'spots' although they were more like little flecks of skin peeling off after a sun burn.
I get the logic, but I don't buy it. Presence of pathogens != guaranteed disease. Are healthy, well fed fish not significantly less likely to be infected even when exposed. And are the chances of a pathogen finding it's mark not inversely proportional to tank size. If it were not so, I could drop a sick fish off the coast of Australia and take out the great barrier reef.It works like this: that system has a number of fish sourced through the very same dealers used in the pet trade. The size of the tank actually INCREASES the risk of an epizootic from all of the shipments it took to fill it. Unlike a home aquarist who might add 10 fish to their tank in say, 4 batches, this system had hundreds of fish added over scores of shipments - much riskier.
Citation needed. (Since it's Mr. Hemdal, I expect there may actually be a citation.)It is known that Neobenedenia can cause an epizootic from just a single egg.
"Guaranteed" is a strong word for a scientifically-minded individual to use. There are epizootics in the ocean, guaranteed. But the fish don't all get sick and die.Obviously, our quarantine process didn’t let that happen, over multiple shipments. N isn’t one, it is the number of fish. I don’t need to risk fish by running a non-quarantine control as I had positive diagnosis of both cryptocaryon and Neobenedenia in incoming fish, and this was resolved by the quarantine process. If I hadn’t quarantined, I would have had epizootics in my main system, guaranteed.
I'm not staying it's not a useful technique. But I suspect doing it well may be hard and error-prone and doing it poorly (as I think I've done) may do more harm than good.Same thing happens in home aquariums.
When I have more time, I’m going to run some data analysis on fish diseases posts here: quarantined versus not, and compare outcomes...I did a quick look last fall and I think the results are going to be profound.
As I said, quarantine isn’t a panacea, but if you are buying standard pet store fish, it is always going to be less riskier than not quarantining.
Proactive quarantine won’t resolve handling issues (cyanide, etc) Uronema, internal bacterial issues like Mycobacterium, or Mycosporidians, but it does resolve the majority of external protozoan and metazoan issues that have the greatest risk of creating an epizootic in the displays.
Jay
I think you misunderstand the term epizootic. Propagule pressure in closed systems means there is a limit to what innate disease resistance will help. At a tipping point, the mere presence of huge numbers of infective agents overwhelm any resistance.I get the logic, but I don't buy it. Presence of pathogens != guaranteed disease. Are healthy, well fed fish not significantly less likely to be infected even when exposed. And are the chances of a pathogen finding it's mark not inversely proportional to tank size. If it were not so, I could drop a sick fish off the coast of Australia and take out the great barrier reef.
Citation needed. (Since it's Mr. Hemdal, I expect there may actually be a citation.)
"Guaranteed" is a strong word for a scientifically-minded individual to use. There are epizootics in the ocean, guaranteed. But the fish don't all get sick and die.
I'm not staying it's not a useful technique. But I suspect doing it well may be hard and error-prone and doing it poorly (as I think I've done) may do more harm than good.
So one thing I learned the hard way in the hobby is that no reef is the same, you may apply the same methods and practices someone does with their tank which makes them successful into your own tank and it may not work the same way. Every tank is different, they all behave differently. I did not quarantine for years and just dumped and prayed, I lost many of my fish, not one of my fish were permanent members of the reef, it didn't work out for me like it does for some other reefers. I have the ability to strictly quarantine everything wet that enters my tank, which most people don't have the space to qt that's why they don't do it but since I began quarantining everything, I've had massive success with everything that enters my tank. I qt everything that's not a fish in my frag tank for 90 days. Fish take about a month and a half to qt, I feel that it gives my tank plenty of time to adjust to the new addition of fish and coral, also 90 days is a lot of time to notice pests on coral, you would be surprised what I find on frags I thought were "clean". Moral of the story is that never compare tanks or methods of reefing, do what works best for you!Hello guys I am so so so confused. Should i quarantine or not? A lot of “famous” people on youtube like reef dork, inappropriate reefer, and fish of hex dont quarantine their fish and they have proof of how successful their reef tanks are.
Based on my experience I am an advocate of 1-4 months of quarantining your fish, because i have personally lost thousands and thousands of dollars after not quarantining before on my Fowlr and my nano reef years back.
Now once again I am seeing a lot of people not quarantining fish. I just started my new aquarium and I heard before that I should quarantine before putting it on my DT but what if there are 0 live stocks in there other than a quarantined sps and CUC.