A lot of known people dont QUARANTINE!!!

[Reef and Dive]

I believe QT can be pretty simple once repeated many times.

Much easier than taking care of most corals.

It seems to me it is avoided much more because of the work needed than because of its complexity.

 

[shred5]

I think a healthy fish with a healthy immune system can fight off any disease or parasite that is in a tank. I think quarantining fish puts more stress on the fish and stress leads to a weakened immune system. Think about the journey they have already had before you bought them. They were taken out of their natural habitat, shipped sometimes 1000s of miles by truck or plane in too crowded and cramped containers. Sometimes kept in multiple locations before they end up in a small display tank at the LFS you bought them from. And after all that, we should bring them home, put them in yet another tank that is too small for them, and sterile, medicate them and bother them daily for weeks and then finally put them in their forever home? A tank that for 99% of fish owners is still too small for an animal that used to have the whole ocean to play in. I know if I went through all that, I would be pretty sickly too. A fish's best chance IMO is to be put straight into your DT that hopefully has a stable environment and left alone.

What about tank raised or bred fish how can they have a healthy immune system when they have never been introduced to any diseases? Now you throw them in with fish from the ocean? How about fish from different parts of the world thrown together? The whole reason you do not put fish from the aquarium back in the ocean. You could introduce a pathogen from a part of the world these fish have never seen and had no resistance too.
We are going more towards tank bred and raised fish that are raised in a sterile environment. Tell me how a tank raised fish can have immunity to something it never has been exposed too?

Let me tell you introduce Uronema into a reef you will regret it.

 

[Pscha4]

Oh the drama.....this has been like reading a suspense novel! If you disagree with an opinion on this topic please try to be respectful.... throwing zingers at someone because you disagree with an opinion is weak! You can be firm in your resolve and still be kind in your approach.

I think you can look at Jay H’s take as well as Paul B’s and realize there are different ways to be successful. Please also take note in the way that they treat each other regardless of different philosophies; with obvious respect because of their dedication to the hobby, the results they’ve achieved and what they have been able to give back to the forum.

Jay H and Paul B.....thank you both for your willingness to share! Your knowledge level and results are impressive and have given us Reefers direction regardless of which path we take when it comes to this topic! Please keep doing what you do best and try to ignore the keyboard warriors out there.

 

[MnFish1]

I disagree. It means that your method doesnt work. You have not had every inhabitant of your tank for 50 years.

@Paul B. Your entire method is based on the fact that your tank is 'immune'. So - IF your tank got wiped out by ich or velvet, etc and it crashed (your quote paraphrased) - of course that would mean that your method doesn't work, by definition.

 

[MnFish1]

What about tank raised or bred fish how can they have a healthy immune system when they have never been introduced to any diseases? Now you throw them in with fish from the ocean? How about fish from different parts of the world thrown together? The whole reason you do not put fish from the aquarium back in the ocean. You could introduce a pathogen from a part of the world these fish have never seen and had no resistance too.
We are going more towards tank bred and raised fish that are raised in a sterile environment. Tell me how a tank raised fish can have immunity to something it never has been exposed too?

Let me tell you introduce Uronema into a reef you will regret it.

@Paul B has often said (I believe) that these fish will do poorly if put into a tank with CI

 

[Paul B]

Tell me how a tank raised fish can have immunity to something it never has been exposed too?

Let me tell you introduce Uronema into a reef you will regret it.

I don't know. But for now out of the fifty million fish we buy in the trade like three of them are tank raised. Ok, maybe a few more but not angelfish, tangs, copperband butterflies (yes, I know someone just hatched some but they are not generally for sale)
There are some clownfish, Bangai cardinals and a few more for sale, but certainly not to many.

For a tank raised fish, if I were to raise those fish, I would use NSW and raise them with naturally, infected fish so they can grow up as healthy, normal fish with immunity. If not, they would have to be quarantined in a sterile tank with no parasites forever.
Baby fish get their immunity from their Mothers and it lasts a little while until that fish starts eating what it is supposed to eat with it's full compliment of bacteria, parasites and yes, uronoma.

Uronema. LOL. I have been getting quotes like this for decades. Put in velvet, uronoma, ich, etc. Do you really believe in 50 years I have not put in every disease imaginable? Like really!

I added I think 3 fish last week and probably 5 or 6 this year and maybe 500 since 1971.
The only reason I have any SPS coral is because I was told many times when corals started to be kept that my tank is to dirty for SPS. I don't even like SPS but I have them all over the place.

The only reason I have a Hippo tang is because people tell me I can't keep tangs in an immune tank. And yet, they live over ten years there.

I have had every kind of tang, I don't like them and find them boring and the most common fish on reefs by far.
On this forum someone wants to give me a school of chromis to see if my fish get uronoma. They won't, and I don't want them.

I am tired of putting things I don't like in my reef to prove a point. At 50 years old I am calling my tank, my fish and my methods a success. I will discuss this with everyone on here with an old, healthy tank.

From what I can see, there aren't to many of them.

Please keep doing what you do best and try to ignore the keyboard warriors out there.

Pscha4, this has been going on since they invented computers. It started with my undergravel filter which can't possibly work. My dolomite gravel which everybody knows is a nitrate factory. My NSW from New York which is to full of organics. My DIY cement rocks that will alter my pH killing everything. My habit of throwing everything into my tank that I collect in the sea with no fan fare.

Dozens of people with very new tanks all like to argue with me about something. Usually something they have problems with in their tanks which I don't.

I do give a lot of advice but almost never on the disease forum because I think a disease forum is silly as fish should not get sick. No, not even uronoma.

I also stay away from all threads where I know my answers will cause arguments. Now that I am older and have other concerns not related to fish, I just ignore those posters.

 

[RJKain-777]

Of course I respectfully disagree. The mere existence of a disease forum dictates that that can't be the result of the "Top Best Science" anything. The Top best science should keep us off the disease forum.

I can see fish getting tumors, pop eye, swim bladder issues or neurological issues, but never communicable things as a healthy immune system would exclude that.

Maybe there should be a "Health" forum where healthy fish and tanks are. Where people can learn ways to keep fish healthy without resorting to un natural, complicated methods. Where the fish never get sick and just live out their life without any mention of disease or discomfort. Where the fish die of old age and maybe spawn along the way.

The foods that successful non disease tanks eat along with the methods used such as aquascaping form health and maybe non chemical water conditioners such as algae scrubbers, skimmers etc.


I have no Idea what this post means?

Very first post in this thread, he said you tubers don’t quarantine, listed off a few, I’m correcting him. That’s all.

 

[Paul B]

I believe QT can be pretty simple once repeated many times.

Much easier than taking care of most corals.

It seems to me it is avoided much more because of the work needed than because of its complexity.

It is not avoided because of the work. It is avoided to keep your fish healthy. OMG I have said that 500 times.

 

[atoll]

It is not avoided because of the work. It is avoided to keep your fish healthy. OMG I have said that 500 times.

I avoid it as
1/ Its not necessary
2/I don't like to add poisons to my tank which is what most people do when adding meds to the QT tank.
3/ I don't like stressing new fish anymore than necessary or needed.
4/My fish have a far better chance of survival not QTing.
5/ unnecessary extra work is right but that not the reason I don't QT. See 1,2,3 and 4above.

 

[brandon429]

the fish disease forum needs work 24x7 for correcting non qt disease


and Jay needs ten times the help producing his results

why, since June, is Jay still carrying all the work in the fish disease forum?

how's it looking for November...fish disease wasting, loss, digging in heels and then replacing fish with new purchases is the worst waste in the hobby and better ways exist vs total loss and replacement and waste.

when those methods exist, Jay won't be doing so much work in the past and future. of course we should recommend qt for at minimum all new reef keepers and recent cyclers.

One significant finding of updated cycling science is that ammonia control is never the issue, all cycling arrangements work out fine, its disease losses that take the fish we originally were worried about cycling killing them.

I like reminding readers to read the fish disease forum daily for new trends, its never about what a single tank can do. it doesnt invalidate anyone's method to simply point out who does all the work, where, and the rate of new tanks daily we can track as trending. you can't get that data from Paul's thread, although you can get info on how to manage a self balancing tank given access to the same stock materials/unique/actual ocean stocks

 

[Righteous]

I don't know. But for now out of the fifty million fish we buy in the trade like three of them are tank raised. Ok, maybe a few more but not angelfish, tangs, copperband butterflies (yes, I know someone just hatched some but they are not generally for sale)
There are some clownfish, Bangai cardinals and a few more for sale, but certainly not to many.

For a tank raised fish, if I were to raise those fish, I would use NSW and raise them with naturally, infected fish so they can grow up as healthy, normal fish with immunity. If not, they would have to be quarantined in a sterile tank with no parasites forever.
Baby fish get their immunity from their Mothers and it lasts a little while until that fish starts eating what it is supposed to eat with it's full compliment of bacteria, parasites and yes, uronoma.

Uronema. LOL. I have been getting quotes like this for decades. Put in velvet, uronoma, ich, etc. Do you really believe in 50 years I have not put in every disease imaginable? Like really!

I added I think 3 fish last week and probably 5 or 6 this year and maybe 500 since 1971.
The only reason I have any SPS coral is because I was told many times when corals started to be kept that my tank is to dirty for SPS. I don't even like SPS but I have them all over the place.

The only reason I have a Hippo tang is because people tell me I can't keep tangs in an immune tank. And yet, they live over ten years there.

I have had every kind of tang, I don't like them and find them boring and the most common fish on reefs by far.
On this forum someone wants to give me a school of chromis to see if my fish get uronoma. They won't, and I don't want them.

I am tired of putting things I don't like in my reef to prove a point. At 50 years old I am calling my tank, my fish and my methods a success. I will discuss this with everyone on here with an old, healthy tank.

From what I can see, there aren't to many of them.


Pscha4, this has been going on since they invented computers. It started with my undergravel filter which can't possibly work. My dolomite gravel which everybody knows is a nitrate factory. My NSW from New York which is to full of organics. My DIY cement rocks that will alter my pH killing everything. My habit of throwing everything into my tank that I collect in the sea with no fan fare.

Dozens of people with very new tanks all like to argue with me about something. Usually something they have problems with in their tanks which I don't.

I do give a lot of advice but almost never on the disease forum because I think a disease forum is silly as fish should not get sick. No, not even uronoma.

I also stay away from all threads where I know my answers will cause arguments. Now that I am older and have other concerns not related to fish, I just ignore those posters.

I like tangs!!! My yellow is my buddy. Lol

but to your point… I became a believer after adding a tang with Ich… just fed really really well, always used live rock from day one from the actual ocean.. never seen ich again after 1 week.

The immune system is an amazing thing when taken care of. I always point people to this book if they’re in the mood to geek out on how the immune system works:

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

the fish disease forum needs work 24x7 for correcting non qt disease


and Jay needs ten times the help producing his results

why, since June, is Jay still carrying all the work in the fish disease forum?

how's it looking for November...fish disease wasting, loss, digging in heels and then replacing fish with new purchases is the worst waste in the hobby and better ways exist vs total loss and replacement and waste.

when those methods exist, Jay won't be doing so much work in the past and future. of course we should recommend qt for at minimum all new reef keepers and recent cyclers.

One significant finding of updated cycling science is that ammonia control is never the issue, all cycling arrangements work out fine, its disease losses that take the fish we originally were worried about cycling killing them.

I like reminding readers to read the fish disease forum daily for new trends, its never about what a single tank can do.

I think we have explained this about a dozen times but where we go again.

Curing and treating a disease is not the same thing as disease prevention. They are separate.

 

[Jimmyneptune]

I don't know. But for now out of the fifty million fish we buy in the trade like three of them are tank raised. Ok, maybe a few more but not angelfish, tangs, copperband butterflies (yes, I know someone just hatched some but they are not generally for sale)
There are some clownfish, Bangai cardinals and a few more for sale, but certainly not to many.

For a tank raised fish, if I were to raise those fish, I would use NSW and raise them with naturally, infected fish so they can grow up as healthy, normal fish with immunity. If not, they would have to be quarantined in a sterile tank with no parasites forever.
Baby fish get their immunity from their Mothers and it lasts a little while until that fish starts eating what it is supposed to eat with it's full compliment of bacteria, parasites and yes, uronoma.

Uronema. LOL. I have been getting quotes like this for decades. Put in velvet, uronoma, ich, etc. Do you really believe in 50 years I have not put in every disease imaginable? Like really!

I added I think 3 fish last week and probably 5 or 6 this year and maybe 500 since 1971.
The only reason I have any SPS coral is because I was told many times when corals started to be kept that my tank is to dirty for SPS. I don't even like SPS but I have them all over the place.

The only reason I have a Hippo tang is because people tell me I can't keep tangs in an immune tank. And yet, they live over ten years there.

I have had every kind of tang, I don't like them and find them boring and the most common fish on reefs by far.
On this forum someone wants to give me a school of chromis to see if my fish get uronoma. They won't, and I don't want them.

I am tired of putting things I don't like in my reef to prove a point. At 50 years old I am calling my tank, my fish and my methods a success. I will discuss this with everyone on here with an old, healthy tank.

From what I can see, there aren't to many of them.


Pscha4, this has been going on since they invented computers. It started with my undergravel filter which can't possibly work. My dolomite gravel which everybody knows is a nitrate factory. My NSW from New York which is to full of organics. My DIY cement rocks that will alter my pH killing everything. My habit of throwing everything into my tank that I collect in the sea with no fan fare.

Dozens of people with very new tanks all like to argue with me about something. Usually something they have problems with in their tanks which I don't.

I do give a lot of advice but almost never on the disease forum because I think a disease forum is silly as fish should not get sick. No, not even uronoma.

I also stay away from all threads where I know my answers will cause arguments. Now that I am older and have other concerns not related to fish, I just ignore those posters.

Hey Paul B how do you add new fish into your system?
Do you every buy over the internet and have them shipped to you? how would you introduce them into your system?

 

[brandon429]

It really is important for all sides to press for the best means of conservation

evolves the hobby fast...

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

I like reading patterns there to discern present and future impacts to the hobby

for example, I counted 10 pages of new help threads there, and about ~66% were tanks under 8 mos old posting for repeat fish loss issues, in these tanks we're able to quick cycle on the button. I believe that pattern w still hold today if inspected...I would take a new poster, click on their name, click post history and find a tank reference to help me date their tank. majority were under 8 mos


we can't get that data from Paul's tank, has to be the ff and then in the stickies we see best practices for prevention and treatment/both. the data isn't landslide anything but its cogs in the inspection wheel.

thats where best practices get tested by the masses, the rest of the threads are the masses trying to replicate methods without having access to ocean-sourced materials etc/context matters

 

[Righteous]

Also I’m guessing the vast majority of diseases in this hobby are traditional parasites, viruses, bacteria etc that fish have been battling for ages. I’m sure it’s possible that at some point a new pathogen might be introduced into the trade that fish don’t have the ability to deal with (like a pandemic us humans are facing)… but for the most part fish live with this stuff all the time.

We see these diseases in the trade however because capturing fish, shipping them, radically changing their environment is extremely stressful.

If anyone reads the above book, you’ll realize how powerful stress can be at effecting the immune systems, perhaps one of the top things. Stress triggers a whole host of biochemical changes including cortisol levels, which are also markers of stress in fish.

How would we all get better at home from a standard illness? Locked in a room alone, uncomfortable, taking chemotoxic medicine (which is what copper is)?

or a nice comfy bed, chicken soup, and some tlc

 

[Sump Crab]

Over 15 years in the hobby and still no qt for me...

 

[Righteous]

“Immune system responses have ‘a substantial energetic cost and the potential for collateral damage,’ according to Dr. Michael Irwin, the Cousins Professor of Psychiatry and Biobehavioral Sciences at UCLA’s David Geffen School of Medicine and director of the Cousins Center for Psychoneuroimmunology. Dr. Irwin is also one of the foremost experts in the world in the connection between your immune system and your brain and behavior, including stress and sleep. The collateral damage is fever, fatigue, actual swelling, or inflammation—all things that might encourage someone to slow down and rest. Not good when you’re up against the lion.”

— An Elegant Defense: The Extraordinary New Science of the Immune System: A Tale in Four Lives by Matt Richtel


Just to put a finer point on it, the quicker a fish can be relieved of stress, the quicker it’s immune system will respond. Under stress, however, the immune system is tamped down so that other flight and fight responses can be prepared.

And another related point… people never talk about if your fish are getting good sleep. Fish definitely sleep at night, and sleep again is incredibly important for immune function. I doubt fish are sleeping well during shipping. And if a fish isn’t comfortable, can’t find a sleeping spot, it’s going to have a stress response being alert for predators, on top of not getting enough rest. A recipe for immune system failure.

 

[jmichaelh7]

It’s a big process for every fish you want

 

[brandon429]

well said

 

[Tamberav]

You could do TTM with prazipro. It takes 12 days. Pretty simple after a few tries. That's all I did for a successful ich-free tank. No need to measure copper.

After 10 years of not QT... (because I didn't like harsh meds)....this is what I did and I am loving it!! I didn't do the prazipro but did the peroxide dips. So no exposure to meds that would effect their gut bacteria.

I do QT all my inverts and coral in a separate tank upstairs to fallow everything.

I do still feed them Paul B style... LRS, fresh clams and live worms! Every day! I feel nutrition is important and my animals eat better then me (because I have no self control and they don't get a choice).

My fish seem to be doing very well. They don't have 'fleas' but ofc still swim in a soup of bacteria and have plenty in their live foods and they seem robust.