A lot of led fixture question

[mtraylor]

My 400's warped my overflow box lid. Its the only plastic on the aquarium and the lid is almost an inch thick.

 

[xabo]

This tank (Marine Land) is about 1-1/2 years old. It replaced my 12 year old (AGA) tank that the center braces snapped due to the heat from the MHs. The Marine Land apparently uses a softer plastic.

 

[A. grandis]

The quality of the materials in a fixtures does have everything in the properties of the light emitted in each fixture when it comes to lighting. Especially in LED's. For LED's, the quality heavily depends on which binning the led comes from. The binning determines the voltage, how they chromatically appear, tolerance of spectrum, etc. etc. etc. The tighter the binning, the more the LED Cost. YOu get what you pay for. Do some googling on it, you will find some good reads and get some good knowledge in that category. It can help you determine how well your LED fixture is made and how close they are to a spectrum that you want. Best thing to do in determining an LED fixture. You will have to call manufactorers to get info though. Just FYI. In MH's the quality of the material also is in place. What kind of reflector are you using, bulb, and ballasts. Any change in the quality of product you buy will yield different results. Reflectors alone are huge. You cant compare a lumen bright reflector to the reflector I had in my PFO fixture. They are not on the same plane or level. The Lumen Bright was way better than what I had.

Anyway moving forward. I have no misunderstanding of how UV and blue lights work in regards to corals. I believe you have been misinformed with what you are saying, so let me share with you.
UV is a spectrum of light. Nothing more, nothing less. Just narrowing down to what we are talking about we have the following
UV-C which is between 200-280nm
UV-B which is between 280-315nm
UV-A which is between 315-400nm.
Then we move to violet and blue visible Light. 400- 500

Here is the spectral graph of MH 250W Radium bulb with electronic ballast.

Now you can see how much uv is in the spectrum. MH's do not offer more UV than any other lighting source. Now lets forget about LED's for a second. When I had MH's I used the super VHO actinic bulb for more "pop" in the coral. Here is its graph. You can clearly see its providing More UV. That is why we add supplement to the MH Radium Bulb. MOre UV. You can do it with SVHO, T5, or LED. Doesn't matter. You need It for the pop.

So what is POP. Let me go over that.
"POP".
Our corals are photosynthetic. The corals change their pigment in order to be more efficient in the photosynthetic process. The change of pigment from blue and UV light give off more fluorescents to the human eye under such lighting giving you the "POP". There is no magic or reflection coming from the coral. Its the pigment of the coral.


If you take a coral that's been under good UV and blue lighting it will have that "POP", under that lighting due to the pigment change to photosynthesize that lighting more efficient. If you put that coral under say a 10k light in another aquarium in buddies tank. The pigment of the coral has not changed, but you will not be able to see the "POP", with the human eye any more due to the loss of spectrum provided light. The corals hasn't changed pigment at this time, but you don't have the proper lighting to see it. Now if you leave the coral in the tank under 10k for several months the coral pigment will change over time to better suite 10k lighting. LEss blue and UV. The coral will no longer have that "POP".

You can give that same coral back to the aquarium that has the good uv and blue lighting and it will not have "POP" anymore. Why? Because the pigment changed in the other aquarium to suite 10k lighting. You will now have to wait say weeks or months later until the pigment changes again for you to get that "POP". Some of us in the old days called that "Coloring up a Coral" for friends. Used to do it all the time for people.

Now my LED's provide the blue and the UV all in one fixture. I hope this helps explain.

I get all that about the fixtures, of course. We all understand the differences of quality and efficiency of better built fixtures.
That's the reason I use ATIs for my T5s: efficiency.
We normally compare fixtures when talking about the same light source though. Then, that list of qualities matters...
That's not what I was talking about, I was referring to different light sources.
By the way, I also had a PFO system back in the day. Other halide fixtures were better than that, yes.

You just can't compare the amount of UV emitted by a halide bulb with most UV LEDs. Intensity plays big time!
The LEDs just can't be compared with halides. Please test your hands under the fixtures.
By the way, to be more precise...
UV-A: 320-400
UV-B: 280-320
UV-C: 200-280
And here:


I could have lot's of "POP" from 54W Giesemann Actinic Blue, ATI Blue Plus or ATI True Actinic bulbs!!! The UV they offer is WAY less than any halide bulb, and technically more than LEDs, by many. Guess what? It's mostly reflection... Some of the polyps under the rocks show even more "pop" than the ones close to the surface through reflection by the glass. Specially under Trure Actinic bulbs.
The so called "pop" from LEDs or Actinic bulbs can be seen in many types of corals.
True pigment formations of different colors can occur from UV exposure and other specific wave lengths, as we know.
LEDs, like any other source, could help the formations of some pigments, when using a specific wavelength produced, in some cases.
The comparison of UV LED bulbs and Metal halide bulbs is very different.
I appreciate your time writing all that and will look into the subject of binning.
I respect your preferences.
Thanks!

Edit: Can your LEDs damage the plastic frame like in post #80? ;Wideyed

Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

My 400's warped my overflow box lid. Its the only plastic on the aquarium and the lid is almost an inch thick.

Isn't that UV damage?
Can the Mitras' LEDs do the same?
Why not?
Get my point on the UV? Plastic, remember?
Grandis.

 

[oreo54]

The LEDs just can't be compared with halides. Please test your hands under the fixtures.

What does that have to do w/ UV?
Are you referring to the IR "sensible heat" portion?

The damage to the tanks looks to be from heat shrinkage and warping..

 

[jda]

The UV degradation plays a huge part, but then so does the heat once the plastic is degraded. The plastic gets damaged over time and then it is impacted more by the heat. Tanks that are stored outside in the sun also have this issue, only much faster. Acrylic, especially cheaper grades, can get serious damaged by this as well. The typical story is that a tank would be fine for years and then all of a sudden, this would happen... the lights did not change, but the plastic did over time. If it was just heat, then it would be almost instant since most bulbs burn more hot with more output when they are being broken in and are brand new.

Just with fans, my plastic trim is not even 100 degrees, but that is enough if the plastic is compromised. I only run 250W HQI though, which are not quite as hot as 400s, but significantly more hot than 250s on M58 or electronic.

This was a larger issue for SE bulbs since DE have a larger glass shield, but DE would still have this happen. It was a HUGE issue for folks who shined a bulb directly over a brace since it got a lot more waves than off to the side.

This is why Oceanic claimed to make their braces out of glass.

Even without the heat, the plastic will eventually get crumbly and brittle with lots of UV exposure... the cheaper the tank, the worse off. Then, the pressure of thin glass panels pressing apart could snap them. This could be a problem for LED folks as they start to introduce real UV and not BS/marketing violet and calling it UV.

Anybody with LEDs, please keep in mind that even though your manufacturer might call stuff UV, spectrum over 400nm is just violet and not a danger. Real UV of danger will be 350, 360, 370 and 380 chips, which are not all that common in most fixtures yet, but are being added more and more. These are important to the coral, so they are worth having... just keep an eye on the plastic stuff and order tanks with glass or metal braces if you are worried.

 

[A. grandis]

Thanks, jda!

Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

What does that have to do w/ UV?
Are you referring to the IR "sensible heat" portion?

The damage to the tanks looks to be from heat shrinkage and warping..

By putting the hand under a fixture one can have a "better idea" of the intensity.
Grandis.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

this thread got so big I thought it was a what’s the best salt thread.


You need more led pucks to get less shadows. It’s not about intensity.

You can’t say led or MH to classify it. It’s like saying fruit is sour, but you are talking about a lemon.

Each fixture has different spread and quality.
Was I talking about MH or Led?

 

[hart24601]

I personally prefer the looks of the LED fixtures and how the coral looks under LED. I have had t5 and halide and I just don't care for them. Of course could always supplement with LED, but how the tank and fixture looks in the room is important to me.

Besides I can grow amazing SPS under any lighting type. If someone is having issues lighting isn't their problem unless they are quite advanced and have some unique challenges specific to their tank. Many people start with a type of light and don't have good results, they change lighting 6mo down and now they start having luck! Perhaps it's due to gaining experience and tank becoming mature....

But really, it comes down to pick what you like although there are cheaper options with each source. I am not kidding when I say reefers should be able to grow great colorful coral under any well respected reef light, it's not easy to admit, but if someone can't then they need to look at how much they really know the hobby and improve their basics.

 

[Szigedi]

I just got tired of changing and keeping track of bulbs. I hated throwing away lights that still worked just because they got old. The led set I went with I picked because of the programmable features and the warranties. I now use the t-5 in my work shop with all those old bulbs I have been saving.

 

[JasPR]

I started in this hobby when MH was all the rage. I go sucked in and never looked back. Then LEDS were the rage. I own radion pros and kiss AP 700 ( you know, the company with the worst software and worst service on the plant. So I'm an LED guy now. You know what? I was just as happy with coralife MH and actinic- sometimes I think I should have never switched, Oh well, that's the hobby, and the hype for you

 

[A. grandis]

this thread got so big I thought it was a what’s the best salt thread.


You need more led pucks to get less shadows. It’s not about intensity.

You can’t say led or MH to classify it. It’s like saying fruit is sour, but you are talking about a lemon.

Each fixture has different spread and quality.
Was I talking about MH or Led?

LOL!
I agree with you.
There were some specific conversations though.
And the Ford stuff... LOL!
Grandis.

 

[mtraylor]

Isn't that UV damage?
Can the Mitras' LEDs do the same?
Why not?
Get my point on the UV? Plastic, remember?
Grandis.

Oh heck No. No way. I actually only had my MH's over this aquarium for a very short time before I saw the Mitras released and I upgraded my lighting. So I didn't have plastic having long term exposure of heat and UV radiation from MH's. It just got warped from the heat and the weight of itself over the overflow. Its a long piece with no support across the middle. I think I may have had one fan working on the PFO pendant at that time and didn't notice till I seen the lid. I actually just took it outside in the Texas heat and flipped it over and I let the sun put it back the way it was after I removed the PFO pendant. My mitras do not give off enough heat to make plastic/pvc pliable so that is why it cant do that. Nor would I want it too. The heat and electric is the reasons I got rid of the MH's in the first place. Thank goodness they are gone. Not to mention listening to those two fans on the fixture all the time and the chiller kicking on. Glad those days are over.

I believe what everyone is talking about on the MH's is actually "UV radiation". Yes the MH bulbs do give off UV radiation. I would agree that yes they give off more than any other bulb, especially if you bought unshielded bulbs with non shielded glass covering them. It will have long term effects on everything around it....Including us.

Well this thread is way of course unfortunately. But thanks for reminding me of the old days. Was fun.

 

[A. grandis]

I do more snorkeling then diving today and in both situations I see halides as the best to simulate the natural environment, followed by T5s.
Did I ever say that I like 'em a lot? LOL! I'm a halide/T5 guy!!
I have some friends with LEDs and they are really, really LED guys. They show me their tanks and talk about their challenges, but they aren't changing. They are true LED people. LOL! I do not pursue them to change. Well... not too much. Haha!!
Love this forum. I do have lot's of friends here with LEDs and I hope we continue being friends...
... but I can't just help that I'm a halide/T5 guy. LOL!

Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

Oh heck No. No way. I actually only had my MH's over this aquarium for a very short time before I saw the Mitras released and I upgraded my lighting. So I didn't have plastic having long term exposure of heat and UV radiation from MH's. It just got warped from the heat and the weight of itself over the overflow. Its a long piece with no support across the middle. I think I may have had one fan working on the PFO pendant at that time and didn't notice till I seen the lid. I actually just took it outside in the Texas heat and flipped it over and I let the sun put it back the way it was after I removed the PFO pendant. My mitras do not give off enough heat to make plastic/pvc pliable so that is why it cant do that. Nor would I want it too. The heat and electric is the reasons I got rid of the MH's in the first place. Thank goodness they are gone. Not to mention listening to those two fans on the fixture all the time and the chiller kicking on. Glad those days are over.

I believe what everyone is talking about on the MH's is actually "UV radiation". Yes the MH bulbs do give off UV radiation. I would agree that yes they give off more than any other bulb, especially if you bought unshielded bulbs with non shielded glass covering them. It will have long term effects on everything around it....Including us.

Well this thread is way of course unfortunately. But thanks for reminding me of the old days. Was fun.

Threads like this are the best ones!!!
If you could post a picture of that damaged plastic would be great... LOL!
I'm glad we're on the same page about the UV.
I'm glad you're happy with your investment on your LEDs too.
It is fun remembering the old times!
Grandis.

 

[mtraylor]

Rock On!
Just a quick note. I hunted forever for a sfiligoi MH/T5 light back in the day to get away from my PFO MH/T12 fixture. That was what I called the "The best lighting fixture Pendant" I had ever seen. Unfortunately I never got the chance to purchase one and see what they looked like.

 

[oreo54]

I do more snorkeling then diving today and in both situations I see halides as the best to simulate the natural environment


Grandis.

Yea if you use 6500k...

At depths is just mostly blue/green.. Any light technology can simulate that..

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yea if you use 6500k...

It will grow coral.

But that’s another debate thread.


Edit : Chevy

 

[oreo54]

Yep..
My biggest pet peeve is LEd light manuf ignoring cyan.. Way more critical for a decent blue smear than green..

changing a little..