A Rant over the lack of fish quality today

[twilliard]

@Humblefish have you been here?
Here is a site that just may help a lot out for meds

http://www.jehmco.com/html/medications.html

 

[deerhunter06]

Thank you

 

[Humblefish]

I know you know the aquarium trade, HF... They should but it costs too much to medicate and the turn around is too quick I would assume.

Some of the fish get flipped the same day they arrive. Still, copper sulfate pentahydrate is effective at low concentrations (to keep the cost down). That would at least prevent ich/velvet from being transmitted during the short holding period.

Well neither one of them made it through the night

Very sorry to hear this.

@Humblefish have you been here?
Here is a site that just may help a lot out for meds

http://www.jehmco.com/html/medications.html

I've seen them but haven't used them yet. I primarily use the two places below:

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products.html

http://fishremedies.com/aquaculturechemicals.aspx

But I still won't buy CP from either place.

 

[4FordFamily]

I don't understand why velvet isn't being halted at the wholesale level. They know how to prevent it from being spread to new arrivals.

It's really unnecessary I agree

 

[LadAShark]

I don't understand why velvet isn't being halted at the wholesale level. They know how to prevent it from being spread to new arrivals.

It would slow down sales if they actually quarantined every fish.

 

[goatcorals]

I use the NLS Icksheild. Has anyone been able to verify its ingredients/quality? I had read it was CP-based, but concentration seemed a little low based on the recommended dosage.

 

[Elegance Coral]

Sorry for your loss

I agree that fish illness has gotten much worse over the years. Back in the day, keeping corals was the hard part because we didn't know what we were doing, but fish were easy. It was a small hobby back then and we didn't have the massive exporters and wholesalers moving thousands and thousands of fish like we do today. If you take that many fish and move them through relatively small systems, illness is going to spread. There's no realistic way they can keep their systems disease free. Every fish we buy, from any retailer in the country, has been exposed to many different life threatening ailments. If you don't QT today, you're just asking to lose every fish you have.

 

[MCooper]

Great thread as I agree with everything being said. I have recently visited various local stores and it seems some do zero prevention, qt, acclimation while others try and do as good of a job as they can.
I went to a shop in Ft. Lauderdale yesterday and was shocked at how healthy the vast majority of the livestock appeared. The store display tank was amazing and all the fish looked fat, healthy and happy. I asked and the fish had all been from the owners personal collection for more then 7-10 years at least. That (if true) told me that this place is solid. Some store display tanks look horrible, clear sign to me.
I asked them about how the acclimate and qt fish. They run Copper and Praziquantel through the system. If you get a fish from a store like this, but it has only been in the store for 12-24 hours, is that medication going to help or hurt the livestock if you then put it into your qt system? I ask because they salesman told me I can even come when they get the shipments and get fish before it enters the stores system and cut out the middle man. Is it beneficial or let the fish acclimate a bit to the stores system?

 

[Salsa777]

It seems like this is how we treat a lot of the animals that have a price tag now days, I'm not some crazy vegan or anything, but reading this thread just makes me think about all trade involving animals. It's like if an animal has commercial value and an industry grows around it, they start to treat the animals like they are just a product to sell, not a living thing. However, I understand, we as the consumers, drive this.

Just a little reflection.

 

[MCooper]

It seems like this is how we treat a lot of the animals that have a price tag now days, I'm not some crazy vegan or anything, but reading this thread just makes me think about all trade involving animals. It's like if an animal has commercial value and an industry grows around it, they start to treat the animals like they are just a product to sell, not a living thing. However, I understand, we as the consumers, drive this.

Just a little reflection.

You are 100% correct. Dogs, cats, rabbits, reptiles, you name it!

 

[miyags]

I can even come when they get the shipments and get fish before it enters the stores system and cut out the middle man. Is it beneficial or let the fish acclimate a bit to the stores system?

I did this, it helps a little. One less transfer in a short time period. I knew the store had a ich problem. I still QT'ed and treated. Like Humblefish said it's coming from the wholesalers.

 

[miyags]

It seems like this is how we treat a lot of the animals that have a price tag now days, I'm not some crazy vegan or anything, but reading this thread just makes me think about all trade involving animals. It's like if an animal has commercial value and an industry grows around it, they start to treat the animals like they are just a product to sell, not a living thing. However, I understand, we as the consumers, drive this.

Just a little reflection.

So true.

 

[reef_junkie]

Also agree. I'm at the point where I'll only consider buying a fish if it's been in a tank (store or another hobbyist) for a month. This is a shame because I have a great source for wholesale fish prices. Unfortunately every fish I ordered from my guy has died in a week.

 

[Dom]

I peeked in my local Petco while out running errands tonight... I was shocked to see their saltwater tanks in deplorable conditions. Frags were covered in hair algae, dead fish stuck in overflow and dead invertebrates. Down right shameful. I felt horrible for everything. It's a brand new store!!!

Thats amazing; I've never been in a Petco that even has that kind of stuff.

 

[zoomonster]

My tank is close to full anyway but I pretty much stopped buying fish from internet a while back (only ever bought a few from Liveaquaria/DD anyway). I'm fortunate to have a LFS that mostly buys from quality marine and/or hand picks at various distributors around the state. Every fish that comes in gets at least a freshwater/methylene blue dip and goes into fish system with therapeutic doses of copper and any fish that shows any sign of issue gets yanked for quarantine and treatment. In 2+ years I have been buying from them I have only ever lost maybe 2 fish that perished long term from some sort of internal issue whether parasite or liver issues. The quality of fish there is a far cry from the probably going to be diseased fish and/or die from some other central FL area stores that buy the cheapest fish they can get and sell at premium prices.

Things could have changed or they could all be having problems now but chances are I won't buy any fish w/o a quality marine label. They have long had a reputation as the only west coast distributor who not only knows how to treat fish disease but actually do it. QM is a little more money at wholesale and a lot of stores will look for the absolute cheapest source to increase margins. Of course I know of another place that buys a lot of QM fish but they get thrown straight into less than ideal quality sales tanks where disease is prevalent.

 

[Dom]

I'm located in the North East. And I agree; it is difficult finding a quality/ethical LFS.

I travel about 45 minutes to my "local" fish store. But it is worth the trip; the staff is knowledgeable, and they won't sell you something unless they think it is in the best interest of everyone (you, the animal and them). I find them to be pricey, but, everything I buy there is healthy and the condition of the tanks are pristine. Most importantly, this store is STRICTLY FISH. I can't buy cat litter or dog food there.

Places like Petco or other chain stores are a one stop shop for every conceivable pet. They are good for dry goods, such as salt and filter media. I even picked up a 75 gallon tank on sale for $99 once. But the livestock will only be as good as the knowledge of the people responsible for maintaining it and the budget they have to work with. Personally, I've never encountered someone who knew saltwater fish in a Petco, but you can get lucky.

We have a local pet store chain... kinda like a Petco, the girl that runs that store excels with salt water fish. Why? Because she cares for a 300 gallon setup in her own home. And, the display tanks in her store reflect her skill set. I never thought I would purchase a saltwater fish from a pet super store, but I do from her. She hand picks her fish that get shipped to her store and everything is healthy, not to mention she QTs everything before putting them on display. She even lets me shop from the QT tank, so anything I buy is QTed twice... at her store then in my QT tank.

So I think it all comes down to the person in charge.

 

[lion king]

When I started stores would actually qt the fish, they wouldn't even let you have it if you begged them until they were satisfied the fish was healthy, that was 30 years ago. The first 15 years I was in the hobby i think I lost 1 fish and never had any disease. I took a hiatus and came back about 5 years ago, and I am disgusted. The lfs wants them out, same day, in the bag even better; they don't even ask tank size and other inhabitants. I've seen as many as 20 dead fish in one day at one lfs, back in the day(lol) a lfs owner would agonize over 1 fish death. I've had ich twice and it seems like at least half the fish have flukes. The number of deaths I've had is appalling. The integrity in this hobby has all but disappeared, at least I know I will give them the best home I possibly can.

 

[twin77]

Thats amazing; I've never been in a Petco that even has that kind of stuff.

I was too actually, but it's a brand new store in Daphne AL. I guess they wanted to hit that market since it's literally the only place within 50 miles with Saltwater livestock. I really need to go back and speak to the manager. I'll take pics if I do.

 

[zoomonster]

When I started stores would actually qt the fish, they wouldn't even let you have it if you begged them until they were satisfied the fish was healthy, that was 30 years ago. The first 15 years I was in the hobby i think I lost 1 fish and never had any disease. I took a hiatus and came back about 5 years ago, and I am disgusted. The lfs wants them out, same day, in the bag even better; they don't even ask tank size and other inhabitants. I've seen as many as 20 dead fish in one day at one lfs, back in the day(lol) a lfs owner would agonize over 1 fish death. I've had ich twice and it seems like at least half the fish have flukes. The number of deaths I've had is appalling. The integrity in this hobby has all but disappeared, at least I know I will give them the best home I possibly can.

What it really boils down to is that stores usually lose at least some stuff in shipment and for many of the suppliers its "oh well" your loss (and they got the same from collectors). For those that do survive shipment some will not make it past 48hrs and some may perish in a matter of weeks. So the incentive is there for stores to push stuff out the door as fast as possible so any loss is on your dime. What stores there are that have any integrity buy quality fish to start with, treat, quarantine and generally charge more. One thing you said I have to disagree with is involvement of a store in questioning purchases. Stores should have knowledgeable staff to answer questions and concerns but that's where it ends. A good way to lose customers/get a bad rep is to interrogate and pass judgement on a customer over desired purchases especially when you consider the lack of quality staff in many stores. Most inexperienced hobbyists I have seen are usually bright enough to ask about a particular fish/coral and seek advice if nothing else because they don't want to lose money killing something.

 

[Humblefish]

It would slow down sales if they actually quarantined every fish.

Not QT per se; just run some copper thru the fish system to protect new arrivals from infection. This is how it was done 20-30 years ago and folks weren't losing fish left & right like they are today.

I asked them about how the acclimate and qt fish. They run Copper and Praziquantel through the system. If you get a fish from a store like this, but it has only been in the store for 12-24 hours, is that medication going to help or hurt the livestock if you then put it into your qt system? I ask because they salesman told me I can even come when they get the shipments and get fish before it enters the stores system and cut out the middle man. Is it beneficial or let the fish acclimate a bit to the stores system?

As long as you don't overdose copper, the worst it usually does is suppress appetite. This can become a problem if the fish has gone too long without eating and starts to waste away. So, ask to see the fish eat before buying.

There are pros & cons to "buying out of the bag". At least it's one less tank the fish has to acclimate into/potentially contract diseases from, but you also don't get a good look at the specimen, observe his behavior and know whether or not the fish is eating.