A Rant over the lack of fish quality today

[MasonL]

I am the aquatics specialist at a Petco in MD. First of all my store never ever ever looks like the one picture earlier. But, I can say, the quality of the fish we receive are always a disappointment. Many of them show signs of ich and other disease before they are even put in the tanks (I can say I extremely disagree with many of my managers acclimation methods, as he's the one there on Thursday mornings to receive the fish). But it is clear that our vendors take very poor care of the fish they send. In particular, we received a Marine Betta last week that came in the bag, already missing it's bottom lip. Not even sure how that happens. It also doesn't help that the only approved medications are Herbtana and Artemiss. Both are all natural herbal medications for parasite and bacterial diseases. There are no other medications approved for use. These do great for the freshwater fish, but I have seen very minimal effects from these products on the salt. Nor does corporate provide us the means to set up an effective quarantine tank. While I would say I am a beginner when it comes to saltwater/reef keeping (lots of experience with fresh), our store looks much better than many other stores in the area. I really do the best I can, with the very limited products at my disposal.

 

[nbagnardi]

I don't understand why velvet isn't being halted at the wholesale level. They know how to prevent it from being spread to new arrivals.

costs money to treat, costs cut into profits. stinks

 

[7hogwarts]

so that means it is cheaper for the fish than the meds?

 

[Phil Cusimano]

I peeked in my local Petco while out running errands tonight... I was shocked to see their saltwater tanks in deplorable conditions. Frags were covered in hair algae, dead fish stuck in overflow and dead invertebrates. Down right shameful. I felt horrible for everything. It's a brand new store!!!

In my humble opinion, Big Box Pet store chains is rarely the way to go for marine live stock.

 

[Humblefish]

so that means it is cheaper for the fish than the meds?

QT & prophylactic treatment of fish takes time, expertise and additional cost (meds, salt, tanks, equipment, etc.) So, higher prices would need to be charged for such specimens. It is a risky proposition for any LFS/online source to expect customers to pay more when non-QT'd fish can be had for cheaper. I've helped one LFS (in Louisiana) develop a QT protocol which works in a commercial setting but it is still challenging.

 

[Phil Cusimano]

I gotta vent...... every single fish I buy anymore NEEDS quarantined. Not only for the sake of spreading disease but because they are actually sick when I get them. I have spent 1000's this past month on rare fish only to get ich and flukes and recently velvet. Thank god I QT the fish with ich and velvet. I have never had velevet however by looks of my two new purchases Achilles and hybrid black tang it is velvet. They have been IN brand new QT since I got them all new water. Treating with CP and still the disease is winning.

However I will admit flukes have got into my DT recently so I'm not perfect.

Seriouisly is depressing I had every intention to buy a gem tang or polyzona coming up but with the way fish are now days it just not even worth it unless you are filithy rich and money doesn't matter.

Rant ... please do .... it even happens at LFS these days, most aquarium shops in my area didn't even quarantine their marine live stock anymore, and finding a reputable dealer that sale both quality corals and fish is getting harder and hard to find. In my humble opinion. Everyone suffers, the aquarium shops don't get the repeat business and hobbyists flush money down the drain, and marine live stock end up dead!!! We use to have 15 Aquarium shops in my area now we're down to just 2 and their not the best either. Their great for dry goods, and Fresh water livestock but not marine.

 

[Agamerce]

QM (live aquaria's supplier) and even divers den, etc are overrun with velvet and ich like the rest of them. I'm getting lots of fish with velvet from both. Divers den less but still an issue

That worries me too! I am QT three caribbean chromis and they have adjusted well. Treatment has been successful and already encountered sickness. Not heard of that out of Divers den and will be limiting my purchases now. Sad

 

[Agamerce]

A few words to the wise from someone who maintained a large wholesale facility for several years...

- Buy your fish roughly October - April, when possible. Obviously when you've just started a new tank in the summer it is understandable to want to start stocking it. With that said whether a wholesale facility practices good QT or not(most do not), the high temps of summer lead to fish shipments in far worse condition than late fall through early spring. Significant numbers of fish come in to the country in poor condition, sometimes near death or with outward symptoms of disease. Given that the "product" is very perishable wholesale companies look to turn and burn because it is the only way to stay afloat. Right now(July) is literally the worst time of year to buy an imported fish no matter the source if you can wait a few months. There are also certain species that are more prone to coming in with certain parasites than others. For instance green chromis, especially those imported at larger sizes, are highly susceptible to Uronema marinum infestations in the summer.

- Because of the first point above, retailers receive fish in worse condition during the summer and they have been shipped 2-3 times in high temps over a period of a week or two in some cases. Retailers shouldn't need to turn and burn as much as on the wholesale level as wholesalers eat most of the losses, but it seems many retailers maintain the same mentality unfortunately. For this reason I won't buy fish that arrived at my lfs within 7-10 days minimum for the most part.

- Many retailers simply don't understand proper QT procedure/meds. I had numerous retail customers call me to ask how to properly QT new fish knowing that we ran CU and Prazi, as well as FW dips and formalin baths as necessary on all our fish. The knowledge gap was a little staggering considering these people owned businesses and did not have the knowledge to protect their investment. I don't know whether it is a lack of effort or information. This is not to say all fish stores practice poor QT practices, but that you should absolutely probe and ask questions before a purchase, as even the most outwardly healthy looking fish can turn bad in a few days.

- Finally, most of the people selling you fish(retail or wholesale) are not maliciously selling you sick fish. Some diseases take several days to show visible symptoms. High shipping temps only make it worse. Unfortunately, disease is part of importing fish and it is nearly impossible to guarantee a fish is disease free in the time span the animal goes from hitting the US to your home aquarium. With this in mind when people recommend to QT all new arrivals, it is not a joke. 3-4 weeks of a solid CU/Prazi regime can handle what most of you will encounter and it's not very hard to dose correctly. Flukes should never make it into a DT. I personally FW dip every fish I buy before they go in a QT tank whether they look bad or not. You'd be surprised how many flukes can be present on an outwardly healthy, eating fish.

That helps this newbie! Looks like I might have a invert tank until October. Thats a nice BDay present...

 

[mr11]

I am the aquatics specialist at a Petco in MD. First of all my store never ever ever looks like the one picture earlier. But, I can say, the quality of the fish we receive are always a disappointment. Many of them show signs of ich and other disease before they are even put in the tanks (I can say I extremely disagree with many of my managers acclimation methods, as he's the one there on Thursday mornings to receive the fish). But it is clear that our vendors take very poor care of the fish they send. In particular, we received a Marine Betta last week that came in the bag, already missing it's bottom lip. Not even sure how that happens. It also doesn't help that the only approved medications are Herbtana and Artemiss. Both are all natural herbal medications for parasite and bacterial diseases. There are no other medications approved for use. These do great for the freshwater fish, but I have seen very minimal effects from these products on the salt. Nor does corporate provide us the means to set up an effective quarantine tank. While I would say I am a beginner when it comes to saltwater/reef keeping (lots of experience with fresh), our store looks much better than many other stores in the area. I really do the best I can, with the very limited products at my disposal.

Are you the Rockville store by any chance? The saltwater petco stock there looks pretty decent to be honest.

 

[sdcfish]

Great thread.....hits home for me. Disheartening at least to hear that quality has been on the decline after so many years of trial and error....not to mention huge improvements over the years in husbandry protocols on the wholesale side as well retailers. Velvet can be a real beach to deal with and often is not something that happens on the early days of arrival into wholesale facilities.

It's great to hear so many realize the importance of qt and doing it more often than before. I have always preached quarantine as a must, as wholesalers rarely have fish long enough to complete a true 30 day cycle and I don't really expect retailers to hold fish that long either.......so the onus of good husbandry has always been on the hobbyist.

Interesting how CP has become more popular and this thread supports that. I personally really like copper safe by Wardley, and sea chems cupramine. API has the furane product I like too.

Seasonalities for crypt, or velvet often caused by crypt can be a real pain but it's part of the ongoing challenge and just needs to be handled quickly and effectively. "ADR" (ain't doin right) fish need to be treated sooner rather than later so giving yourself a better chance is often the best course of success.

I hope those stores that aren't up to snuff figure it out soon as there's really no room for complacency when it comes to handling livestock. That kinda stuff just grinds my gears!

Carry on true hobbyists.....let it be known how to best handle these challenges!

 

[Nemguy123]

Honestly I've never had a problem with qt for fish I qt everything and I mean everything even snails and algae and when I at fish I keep them in copper power for 2 weeks and that stuff just kills everything I refuse to use it as somethin always in the fish only system because it must cause some damage to the fish after a long period of time to me qting a fish is easy compared to the sea anemones that need 100% water changes each day of qt for 10 days lol

 

[najer]

England.
I'm not much of a fish person, I do have fish, my lfs is very well known for quality of fish and corals.
I never qt fish (please don't get on my case, to be continued), the shop gets fish from a wholesaler and imports, imports are always quarantined before sale.
I even trust them enough that I acclimate in the bag and then gently let the fish swim out of the bags, I get their water.
I bought a lovely little wrasse from a different store about 6 months ago, it was the following day before I noticed it had flukes.
Caught it out and FW dipped it, won't make that mistake again!
Their care to detail of corals and fish makes me lucky I guess, they will hold things for as long as I want to see how they settle and feed.
I pay a small premium but am confident in their stock.

 

[BassetsOnly]

I gotta vent...... every single fish I buy anymore NEEDS quarantined. Not only for the sake of spreading disease but because they are actually sick when I get them. I have spent 1000's this past month on rare fish only to get ich and flukes and recently velvet. Thank god I QT the fish with ich and velvet. I have never had velevet however by looks of my two new purchases Achilles and hybrid black tang it is velvet. They have been IN brand new QT since I got them all new water. Treating with CP and still the disease is winning.

However I will admit flukes have got into my DT recently so I'm not perfect.

Seriouisly is depressing I had every intention to buy a gem tang or polyzona coming up but with the way fish are now days it just not even worth it unless you are filithy rich and money doesn't matter.

I agree. The fish lately have been terrible. Not all but a good majority of the fish coming in. I help at a saltwater fish store and they do everything possible to treat the fish that come in. We brought a black tang into the store and within 2-3 days he popped out with ick. We treated the tank for ick. Then a week later we started seeing holes in his fins. We did a fresh water dip and worms came out. Thank goodness we saved him. We run copper in the fish tanks and as soon as we see any fish not looking right we do a freshwater dip and most of the time worms come out of them. We got 3 beautiful blonde naso tangs in and they started turning black! Of course they died. The owner of the store called the distributor and complained saying he never seen tangs turn black like that. We got another batch of naso from another distributor and they were beautiful. The point of this is, is that your local shops are doing their best and the problem lies somewhere wherever they are holding these fish for distribution to your local shops.

 

[zoomonster]

QM (live aquaria's supplier) and even divers den, etc are overrun with velvet and ich like the rest of them. I'm getting lots of fish with velvet from both. Divers den less but still an issue

I've had the opportunity to see Many fish come in from QM and some others in the past few weeks and I have not seen any sign of issue (yet) and the fish all seemed to be of exceptional quality. I also have a couple new fish that came from those shipments and they are also exceptional. I'm overly cautious by nature and I generally look at every fish in every tank before I buy to see what issues may be in tanks. Now in all fairness I now know of someone local that got QM fish in the past few months and had a breakout of velvet. I don't anticipate buying any more fish anytime soon so hopefully the supplier issues will be worked out soon.

 

[DSPENCE]

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but a continuous use of Copper will lower the fishes immune system. Using it as a QT procedure or treatment as needed is one thing, but if a LFS is using it in their system, it can be a catch 22. Several years ago, I bought a pair of wild caught percs. from DD and they came with velvet or brooklynella......I was an idiot and put them in my DT without quarantine and it wiped out all of the fish in a matter of days....thought that DD stuff would be safe if they'd gone through the quarantine and treatment protocol that they said they do. I also got a BDJawfish from DD and it came with a big ole fluke on it's side. I now quarantine EVERYTHING!

I did get a pair of Flame Wrasses and 4 Helfrichi Firefish from Zoa collector and they've done awesome! (The Flames did a bit of scratching for the first couple of days, but I think this was perhaps some irritation from being bagged/shipped as it resolved on it's own.) I wouldn't be afraid to order from him again. He also had great prices on some otherwise pricey fish if bought from the LFS.

 

[4FordFamily]

I've had the opportunity to see Many fish come in from QM and some others in the past few weeks and I have not seen any sign of issue (yet) and the fish all seemed to be of exceptional quality. I also have a couple new fish that came from those shipments and they are also exceptional. I'm overly cautious by nature and I generally look at every fish in every tank before I buy to see what issues may be in tanks. Now in all fairness I now know of someone local that got QM fish in the past few months and had a breakout of velvet. I don't anticipate buying any more fish anytime soon so hopefully the supplier issues will be worked out soon.

I've purchased a dozen or so and at least one had velvet. It happens. QM is a great supplier my point though is that it can and will come from anywhere.

 

[Feet4Fish]

Admittedly slightly off-topic but I have a question. The last eight months I've been building up a new fish only system. Pretty much finished stocking it and everyone has done beautifully. No one has showed any signs of illness. All were pre-dipped in Hydro Plex before being placed in the tank. As it was a fish on system I didn't quarantine as I knew I could medicate the tank if needed. To date no fish is shown any signs of illness.

Would there be any benefit, insurance or adverse events if I wanted to run treatment of copper and/or prazi through the system? Against the system had no invertebrates and no corals. Just with all this talk of velvet going to the wholesalers I am a bit anxious. Tank inhabitants include a trigger, purple tang, FoxFace, maroon clown, marine Betta, harlequin tusk, flame Angel and majestic angel.

 

[sawmillthug]

A few words to the wise from someone who maintained a large wholesale facility for several years...

- Buy your fish roughly October - April, when possible. Obviously when you've just started a new tank in the summer it is understandable to want to start stocking it. With that said whether a wholesale facility practices good QT or not(most do not), the high temps of summer lead to fish shipments in far worse condition than late fall through early spring. Significant numbers of fish come in to the country in poor condition, sometimes near death or with outward symptoms of disease. Given that the "product" is very perishable wholesale companies look to turn and burn because it is the only way to stay afloat. Right now(July) is literally the worst time of year to buy an imported fish no matter the source if you can wait a few months. There are also certain species that are more prone to coming in with certain parasites than others. For instance green chromis, especially those imported at larger sizes, are highly susceptible to Uronema marinum infestations in the summer.

- Because of the first point above, retailers receive fish in worse condition during the summer and they have been shipped 2-3 times in high temps over a period of a week or two in some cases. Retailers shouldn't need to turn and burn as much as on the wholesale level as wholesalers eat most of the losses, but it seems many retailers maintain the same mentality unfortunately. For this reason I won't buy fish that arrived at my lfs within 7-10 days minimum for the most part.

- Many retailers simply don't understand proper QT procedure/meds. I had numerous retail customers call me to ask how to properly QT new fish knowing that we ran CU and Prazi, as well as FW dips and formalin baths as necessary on all our fish. The knowledge gap was a little staggering considering these people owned businesses and did not have the knowledge to protect their investment. I don't know whether it is a lack of effort or information. This is not to say all fish stores practice poor QT practices, but that you should absolutely probe and ask questions before a purchase, as even the most outwardly healthy looking fish can turn bad in a few days.

- Finally, most of the people selling you fish(retail or wholesale) are not maliciously selling you sick fish. Some diseases take several days to show visible symptoms. High shipping temps only make it worse. Unfortunately, disease is part of importing fish and it is nearly impossible to guarantee a fish is disease free in the time span the animal goes from hitting the US to your home aquarium. With this in mind when people recommend to QT all new arrivals, it is not a joke. 3-4 weeks of a solid CU/Prazi regime can handle what most of you will encounter and it's not very hard to dose correctly. Flukes should never make it into a DT. I personally FW dip every fish I buy before they go in a QT tank whether they look bad or not. You'd be surprised how many flukes can be present on an outwardly healthy, eating fish.

Approximately how long do you do a freshwater dip for new fish? Anything special on what to do?

 

[Brian fischer]

It depends on the fish but most common reef fish I do 2-3 minutes. If flukes are present you will see them turn white and begin to fall off around 45-75 secs usually. Larger/hardier fish can take a longer dip although I find 2-3 minutes will kill most of the adult flukes which is the goal of the dip. Any longer is usually just excessive and doesn't increase effectiveness. I use RO water buffered to the pH of the saltwater the fish was in originally using sodium bicarbonate. It is normal for the fish to freak out a little at first and then lay on the bottom of the container for the remainder of the dip. If they start having issues breathing(severely slowed) or become unresponsive when touched immediately remove them from the dip and place back in normal conditions. In my experience only fish that are already too far gone have issues with FW dips and show negative effects as described above. If a fish develops a cloudy eye(s) a FW dip is my go to as often times flukes are present and some have decided to take residence on the eye(s).

 

[Phil Cusimano]

That helps this newbie! Looks like I might have a invert tank until October. Thats a nice BDay present...

Great tip!