A thread tracking the incidence of seneye nh3 misreads

[britnicole1724]

and you can trim it too/covered here since you have a fully running display. the nh3 will be between .002-.006 is the highest Ive seen in the last year of tracking patterns in posted seneye reads on displays. its hard to calibrate only when the tank is new, when they're fully stocked and running like yours is the proofing is very simple given that nh3 range above where display reefs run in posted pattern. if they send you one that doesnt read that range, and you still don't want to trim adjust it, send that one back too.

slide soaking and prep variances, slide expiry and slide handling issues also present in meters that otherwise run correctly.

hardly anyone agrees the ph and photometer portion are accurate, we're pretty much only concerned with the ammonia portion here. also critical: nobody really cares if the bottom end read/ .002-.006 is dead on accurate either, until someone gets a different digital brand kit to bench alongside a seneye on a running reef we don't exactly know the running bottom consistent end of nh3, but we know of the precision changes that occur with feeding, or a fish dying etc. seneyes are very very good/best we have in the hobby of indicating small precision changes in stasis, and they're also the best meter on the market for reporting nh3 matching the tank pics of the reef at hand

vs cheap kits that indicate a stall, and impending doom, in reef tanks running just fine for years.

once you get a meter showing a relatively decent close range of nh3 in your known display, it'll do well in reporting minor changes even if the pH portion is imperfect. Seneye is still in this new year the overall best ammonia monitor for the hobby, it has effectively ended the notion of a stalled reef tank cycle.

100% ended that issue. api and red sea are keeping the issue alive as a good cop/bad cop scenario.


the ammonia drop dates shown on seneye cycles has allowed us to assign very specific start dates/cycle end dates without any sort of testing whatsoever in the new cycling forum, pages are approaching 100 now of working examples.



seneye has contributed more to reef cycling honing than any invention in the last decade. it deserves an award for streamlining a portion of the hobby where people used to get ripped off, constantly, over and over.

nobody needs to monitor ammonia in a running reef tank, if you were wanting accurate pH and photometer seneye would have been the last recommend I'd have made for your investment. we use it for bacterial proof posts because of the way they indicate change, not necessarily just the running averages daily. we use them to chart the rate of uptake any running reef can handle when raw ammonia is added/lab type proofs.

I just edited my previous comment

how do you trim to make sure this is accurate? As long as it is reading a range between .002 and .006?

 

[brandon429]

until we get a second and different brand of digital meter to benchmark that range, you get to choose if you believe that or not. how to find proofs/where that range comes from:

on reef 2 reef there are about 150 seneye posts to study for your pattern takeaway on what displays run at.


if you don't believe any of the kits are correct, even when benchmarked against running reefs like we do and in some cases known degrees of added ammonia, then disregard that range we use to run huge cycling threads without loss.


but if you're detecting some form of consistency, to a high degree, in that self guided research I'd be curious to know the range you or Lasse would assign for example

that range stated comes from constantly studying and gaining seneye input in chats, posts, cycle troubleshoots against known deposition timelines, and it comes from Dr. Reef's bottle bac thread, a very powerful source of known timing charts and seneye proofings, against api proofings, that thread is a bid deal in discerning if one thinks seneye is useless.


certainly give it a chance on a second meter/we can't just instantly raise the bar from accepting 20K api misreads and still trusting it in the hobby to instantly discounting seneye off a bad meter and years of dedicated study where all cycles based on them work, 100% of the time.

I would value anyone's input and sourcing over what they think the running nh3 range is for reef tanks here more than any reefing information I could be told in 2022.

 

[brandon429]

the dosing of ammonia thread, Im at work Ill link it in a sec, shows a range of seneye tanks within that started range and then they add cycling ammonia right into the sps reef and track it on seneye. The range, and rebound, is pattern gold to those who earnestly want to know. ill link in a sec

 

[britnicole1724]

until we get a second and different brand of digital meter to benchmark that range, you get to choose if you believe that or not. how to find proofs/where that range comes from:

on reef 2 reef there are about 150 seneye posts to study for your pattern takeaway on what displays run at.


if you don't believe any of the kits are correct, even when benchmarked against running reefs like we do and in some cases known degrees of added ammonia, then disregard that range we use to run huge cycling threads without loss.


but if you're detecting some form of consistency, to a high degree, in that self guided research I'd be curious to know the range you or Lasse would assign for example

that range stated comes from constantly studying and gaining seneye input in chats, posts, cycle troubleshoots against known deposition timelines, and it comes from Dr. Reef's bottle bac thread, a very powerful source of known timing charts and seneye proofings, against api proofings, that thread is a bid deal in discerning if one thinks seneye is useless.


certainly give it a chance on a second meter/we can't just instantly raise the bar from accepting 20K api misreads and still trusting it in the hobby to instantly discounting seneye off a bad meter and years of dedicated study where all cycles based on them work, 100% of the time.

I would value anyone's input and sourcing over what they think the running nh3 range is for reef tanks here more than any reefing information I could be told in 2022.

I mean there are consistently inaccuracies in every single test out there.
I never said I was discounting seneye off a bad meter. I’m more so asking how I trim it so that it is something that I can rely on because consistently reading .001 for 2 weeks clearly isn’t right.

 

[brandon429]

Does anyone dose ammonia and/or how would one try?

So, after an interesting discussion on nitrate dosing and looking at my Walt Disney coral and seeing it slightly less colorful than I have seen it in others tanks, I have decided I want to learn about and then try dosing ammonia instead of buying 20 damsels. Nitrate additives I see abound and...

www.reef2reef.com

this one is gold. any critique or reinforcement of assigned ranges needs to include specific pros and cons from that thread, its a gold mine among the 150

and then when ten more like this are found, and we compare to what their display surface area looks like, the common dilution at hand, the number of fish and true bioloading workout, the age of their tank relative to the ammonia drop line on a cycling chart, the context lines up astonishingly well. that's how I arrive at the ranges

also, Randy's article links have shown natural reefs at that range, higher in other areas. these reefs tanks aren't oceans, that data isn't the full picture as well. mainly these posts service as prediction anchors for that day where someone finally owns an undebatable nh3 monitor for a reef tank. When Lasse is convinced, Ill be convinced, then we will have a trove of predictions to inspect.

in the meantime we debate and make predictions. constantly not killing other people's reef tanks using very tight date range predictions also helps in backup: being able to run remotely someone else's reef as if they have a seneye, even when they dont, in settings where ammonia noncompliance will show as a dead tank, matters.

 

[britnicole1724]

Does anyone dose ammonia and/or how would one try?

So, after an interesting discussion on nitrate dosing and looking at my Walt Disney coral and seeing it slightly less colorful than I have seen it in others tanks, I have decided I want to learn about and then try dosing ammonia instead of buying 20 damsels. Nitrate additives I see abound and...

www.reef2reef.com

this one is gold. any critique or reinforcement of assigned ranges needs to include specific pros and cons from that thread, its a gold mine among the 150

and then when ten more like this are found, and we compare to what their display surface area looks like, the common dilution at hand, the number of fish and true bioloading workout, the age of their tank relative to the ammonia drop line on a cycling chart, the context lines up astonishingly well. that's how I arrive at the ranges

also, Randy's article links have shown natural reefs at that range, higher in other areas. these reefs tanks aren't oceans, that data isn't the full picture as well. mainly these posts service as prediction anchors for that day where someone finally owns an undebatable nh3 monitor for a reef tank. When Lasse is convinced, Ill be convinced, then we will have a trove of predictions to inspect.

in the meantime we debate and make predictions. constantly not killing other people's reef tanks using very tight date range predictions also helps in backup: being able to run remotely someone else's reef as if they have a seneye, even when they dont, in settings where ammonia noncompliance will show as a dead tank, matters.

So to trim my new seneye, set the range so that it is reading somewhere in between .002 and .006? I guess I am trying to understand the term trimming and also actually *how* it is done rather than the whys behind it. Bare in mind this is my first ever reef tank and first ever piece of equipment like this so the software is something I am not used to.
However, I do know, after reading threads such as this one, consistently reading .001 nh3 for 2 weeks straight combined with consistently low pH means something is not properly calibrated and I’d like to change it so that it is something I can rely on. The only thing my seneye has done for me is tell me when it’s out of the water. If I spent 550 dollars for that then give me an apex lol

I will say Seneye’s customer support team in getting me a new device has been outstanding. I sent a couple of pictures over as well as a front and back photo of my slide and they confirmed it was a faulty device. Replaced it free of charge, shipping included

 

[brandon429]

hey that is good to know. you know honestly if they were willing to ship a new meter vs discuss trim that's amazing of them, to defer to the costliest option of all right off the bat. take the new one for sure and also handy: you have measures of ph to compare to the new one too pls update, those inputs will be data snippets where we can look back on patterns once better gear has evolved or once seneye 5.0 is available, to track progressions. I dont own any ammonia test kits at all, so to read on trimming I'd have to go back here and see the details its all very techy


I find hidden gems like the cleaner shrimp trick to impact cycling and nh3 tracking and toxicity tracking and stall tank tracking: try and find one reef on this site who couldn't add a lysmata cleaner shrimp to their tank currently. they all can


that immediately sets a known expected nh3 max for reef tanks in general if we search out the very low degree of free ammonia it takes to kill a cleaner shrimp, they're the weakest motile organisms in reefing. the fact their canary mine-birding runs at 100% really means we know what the top end max range is for nh3 given our avg temps, our avg pH, our avg dilution rates/avg surface area bioload and flow---even if we don't currently own a meter that can prove that top end average


one day

 

[britnicole1724]

hey that is good to know. you know honestly if they were willing to ship a new meter vs discuss trim that's amazing of them, to defer to the costliest option of all right off the bat. take the new one for sure and also handy: you have measures of ph to compare to the new one too pls update, those inputs will be data snippets where we can look back on patterns once better gear has evolved or once seneye 5.0 is available, to track progressions. I dont own any ammonia test kits at all, so to read on trimming I'd have to go back here and see the details its all very techy


I find hidden gems like the cleaner shrimp trick to impact cycling and nh3 tracking and toxicity tracking and stall tank tracking: try and find one reef on this site who couldn't add a lysmata cleaner shrimp to their tank currently. they all can


that immediately sets a known expected nh3 max for reef tanks in general if we search out the very low degree of free ammonia it takes to kill a cleaner shrimp, they're the weakest motile organisms in reefing. the fact their canary mine-birding runs at 100% really means we know what the top end max range is for nh3 given our avg temps, our avg pH, our avg dilution rates/avg surface area bioload and flow---even if we don't currently own a meter that can prove that top end average


one day

I guess I’m still confused as to how I trim it as everyone is saying in this thread. If it always reads .001 then what? Send back to seneye because it clearly needs to be trimmed and nobody will explain how to do this?

 

[britnicole1724]

Like in terms of technology in the seneye app/website what do I need to do to trim my seneye is what I am asking if my new one is still reading .001?

Do I need to test it in another tank? Is there something I need to do to the slide? Physically how is this done? What is the process behind “trimming” a seneye??

 

[brandon429]

Re read here posts from ingchr1 or maybe send him a chat, he’s been discussing trimming since page four at minimum and let them send you a new one first, concern over trimming that one if required. If you want to experiment with either device Id set the trim output off a known cycled reef stocked with fish and corals, slide soaked and prepped as they discuss, to .005 as the baseline. That’s a decent assumed starting range for a cycle reef and if anything probably a few thousandths too high.


I don’t know how to trim seneyes, to calibrate them within range after verifying slide preps. If a reread here from page two onward doesn’t state how I’d send Ingchr1 a message he’ll know


for scale I pulled your full tank shot off the recent fts thread to post here, it’s a very very low bioload tank, not stacked with five tangs etc. If your second new seneye says .001 again that may match the lack of heavy fish bioload here. Trimming to .005 is a very prudent safe zone guess based on high dilution, low bioload, high surface area, very clean setup:

any seneye reef found in that presentation above will not be running above .005 that’s for sure.

 

[brandon429]

Hey I found a snippet on trimming from our friend LRT, seneye owner, from another thread:

brandon429 said:
I’m still learning about its pH abilities I have no idea how that part calibrates, it would not surprise me if some of these kits do need trimming function ran off the shelf they’re certainly not complication free

watching Dan and LRT work with them in calibration posts is boggling I think, its nice to see additional patterns here thanks for adding the drop times and red sea boost when possible, that’s perfect

Its really not difficult to calibrate at all. Click on tab, slide bar where it needs to be and done.
@Logical_Plan id love to see a new seneye thread with some more testing.
I'm getting ready to do some more myself
Dan has done some great experiments with seneye side by side with hach and has given us some pretty solid numbers as baselines actually super fine tuned between concentrations of .004 -.020 respectively.
Id start there but reccomend PH moniter and calibration fluids as well as a cpl temp probes for control for accurate readings.

 

[britnicole1724]

Re read here posts from ingchr1 or maybe send him a chat, he’s been discussing trimming since page four at minimum and let them send you a new one first, concern over trimming that one if required. If you want to experiment with either device Id set the trim output off a known cycled reef stocked with fish and corals, slide soaked and prepped as they discuss, to .005 as the baseline. That’s a decent assumed starting range for a cycle reef and if anything probably a few thousandths too high.


I don’t know how to trim seneyes, to calibrate them within range after verifying slide preps. If a reread here from page two onward doesn’t state how I’d send Ingchr1 a message he’ll know


for scale I pulled your full tank shot off the recent fts thread to post here, it’s a very very low bioload tank, not stacked with five tangs etc. If your second new seneye says .001 again that may match the lack of heavy fish bioload here. Trimming to .005 is a very prudent safe zone guess based on high dilution, low bioload, high surface area, very clean setup:

any seneye reef found in that presentation above will not be running above .005 that’s for sure.

I do have more fish than this pictures.
2 clownfish
2 firefish
1 royal gramma
1 foxface
1 valentini puffer
1 diamond goby
1 ruby dragonet
2 cleaner shrimp, 1 emerald crab, 1 chocolate chip star

 

[brandon429]

Well neat. The tank has such good open spaces and hiding niches at the same time it didn’t look like a strong bioload, which that is. Well done balancing it all the tank is nice and not invaded, it’s what we’d all like to own.

 

[britnicole1724]

Updated with new seneye. PH is reading better but nh3 is still .001

 

[brandon429]

I see a ton of those .001 out in the verse. I'd just keep the machine and trim it to .005 based on the very best patterns we can find. I really appreciate your posts here, talk about on topic: went through 2x seneyes and still get what we consider from prior pages to be off kilter. its a good data relay and a good summary on how seneye is willing to help. in my opinion I'd just trim it to .005 and watch for anything crazy there on out.

if seneye is dead-set on no trims required/even though they provide that function/heck make 'em send and ship over and over you did pay a good chunk of change to know free ammonia that's for sure. whichever you think is best/worth the headache.


to give some degree of reassurance after the trim if selected, these other meters don't hold at .00x all day it fluxes based on bigger than normal feeding events, the occasional dead fish, its a truly exercised range and based on training I'm getting from Dan in chats pH changes throughout the day is also affecting nh3 status. the point is a fixed reading is atypical and one that ranges roughly .002-.006 ish or so and stays in motion thereabouts fits the patterns of the other machines and how they present in layout pics.

 

[britnicole1724]

I see a ton of those .001 out in the verse. I'd just keep the machine and trim it to .005 based on the very best patterns we can find. I really appreciate your posts here, talk about on topic: went through 2x seneyes and still get what we consider from prior pages to be off kilter. its a good data relay and a good summary on how seneye is willing to help. in my opinion I'd just trim it to .005 and watch for anything crazy there on out.

if seneye is dead-set on no trims required/even though they provide that function/heck make 'em send and ship over and over you did pay a good chunk of change to know free ammonia that's for sure. whichever you think is best/worth the headache.


to give some degree of reassurance after the trim if selected, these other meters don't hold at .00x all day it fluxes based on bigger than normal feeding events, the occasional dead fish, its a truly exercised range and based on training I'm getting from Dan in chats pH changes throughout the day is also affecting nh3 status. the point is a fixed reading is atypical and one that ranges roughly .002-.006 ish or so and stays in motion thereabouts fits the patterns of the other machines and how they present in layout pics.

I did just put it in my tank all of maybe 20 minutes ago. Maybe I’ll give it a few days and update then. Seneye’s support has been great in terms of getting me a new one. And as I said pH seems to be a hair better. I haven’t ran any of my tests on pH through Hanna or Red Sea to see how close all of them are. Will do that shortly and update accordingly.

 

[britnicole1724]

Update as of this morning. pH seems to be a bit more accurate but my nh3, even trimmed to .05 is still consistently reading .04 with zero fluctuation. Nh4 does fluctuate. Not sure if it’s accurate or not and seneye has since stopped responding to my messages about this.

 

[brandon429]

I think it’s fine, I can’t explain the non shifting but this trimmed setup now allows some decent cross verification. You can move that probe now into other reef tanks to check for changes, or do you have any friends who could get you a sample of tank water to bring home and test? It would be neat to get a sample cup of reef water from a pet store and then come home and test it for readings other than .004 with that probe but on the same slide etc


make sure all slides are pre soaked according to directions and handled with care, mind their expiry dates per slide.


your tank has tons of dilution and surface area, it will eat up any spikes of ammonia that may happen unless they are pronounced. You could add some cycling ammonia to the reef there for an easy test, we could get dosing ideas that are known safe from this ammonia dosing thread. Because your tank is so well balanced it’ll eat up any ammonia dosed in ten minutes and if you input the amount they were inputting here into your tank and the meter doesn’t move again, then that’s an accuracy concern.

Does anyone dose ammonia and/or how would one try?

So, after an interesting discussion on nitrate dosing and looking at my Walt Disney coral and seeing it slightly less colorful than I have seen it in others tanks, I have decided I want to learn about and then try dosing ammonia instead of buying 20 damsels. Nitrate additives I see abound and...

www.reef2reef.com

that’s a noted fail on seneye to not follow up on the second stuck test .001 email, or to offer trim advice etc. fail on that part considering the cost of the meter.

 

[LRT]

@Dan_P did a really good side by side with hach and found seneye to be accurate in the range of .004-.020 nh3. What its reading below .004 idk but considering .004 to be good bench mark im going out on a limb to say its not reading accurately until nh3 is measured .004 or more.
My Seneye stays stuck at .001 in fully cycled system. Tank is fully capable of cycling nh3 out during regular feeding as to not cause a blip so that makes sense.
In a brand new tank I can track nh3 with measured feedings between .004-.012 no problem. Once ammonia cycle is established (usually within first cpl days) its really hard to get a measurement of nh3 above .001 unless I overfeed outside of already established measured feedings. If I do get a blip it usually doesn't last longer than 2-3 hrs.

 

[brandon429]

very helpful input thank you LRT


you’re been subjecting your seneye to all kinds of tests, if it stays at .001 (indicates ideal ammonia oxidation perhaps) but still responds to feeding events we may have to allow for .001 to exist as a viable read. It’s neat how still in 2022 what ammonia nh3 does at the steady state low level is being discerned and isn’t firm knowledge yet. Fun to be on cutting edge anything aquarium science