About characteristics of deepwater acro. RTN occurred...

[shom]

Question :
Are there any characteristics of deepwater acro that make them vulnerable to changes especially in salinity (high salinity)?

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Hi, I am a Japanese aquarist who has just joined Reef2Reef.
There are few aquarists in Japan and not much information, so I joined Reef2Reef.

I have been breeding Australian deepwater acro for about a month.
The initial whitish areas have been repaired and the color has improved, but this morning RTN started.
I haven't had any problems with other acros, but this deepwater acro's RTN is serious.

I have been conducting weekly water tests and 1/10 water changes (based on Redsea's reef care program), and no major water quality changes have occurred for several months.

However, the salinity was a little high at 35.5ppt when I measured it this morning. (Normally it's between 34 and 35 ppt.)

Are there any characteristics of deepwater acro that make them vulnerable to changes especially in salinity (high salinity)?

There are several causes I suspect other than water quality, but I have a question about the characteristics of deepwater acro.

thank you.

 

[ScottB]

I will bump this and maybe some others can jump in. I don't know the answer to your specific question regarding salinity & deep water.

I keep a lot of acropora, but they are all captive bred aquacultured acros. I've read and listened to several of the professional aquaculture folks who describe very high rates of mortality for wild caught acropora. This is even more true nowadays given the demand for "new" deep water varieties. @SBB Corals (Shane Backer) I think was saying something like 75% of his imports die in captivity. Some live for weeks, others months, but huge mortality.

This makes obvious sense. The folks I buy from run the same lighting (PAR & spectrum), similar nutrients and element parameters so the acclimation process is minimally stressful on the coral. I will say that a salinity creep of 1ppt would NOT likely cause an RTN event on these aquacultured acropora.

Natural sea water parameters are known values, but replicating the nutrient availability of the ocean is tougher. Replicating the light spectrum for deep water is likely tricky as well. It seems you would need to run a species tank to help them acclimate very slowly to our captive light spectrum and levels.

Jason Fox also discusses this in a few videos you can find on youtube.

Lastly, WELCOME TO REEF2REEF! We are glad you are here.

 

[TerraFerma]

For me they are always the first to go when something gets out of whack in the tank.

 

[ScottB]

One other thing for you to consider. It is a good gesture to the community that you introduce yourself in the "Meet & Greet Forum". Some of the moderators may be able to link you with other reefers in Japan.

Lastly, my son speaks Japanese and is a huge Japanophile. We traveled around Honshu for two weeks when he graduated high school. I have been in Tokyo for business 20+ times. Awesome city and wonderful people.

 

[shom]

I will bump this and maybe some others can jump in. I don't know the answer to your specific question regarding salinity & deep water.

I keep a lot of acropora, but they are all captive bred aquacultured acros. I've read and listened to several of the professional aquaculture folks who describe very high rates of mortality for wild caught acropora. This is even more true nowadays given the demand for "new" deep water varieties. @SBB Corals (Shane Backer) I think was saying something like 75% of his imports die in captivity. Some live for weeks, others months, but huge mortality.

This makes obvious sense. The folks I buy from run the same lighting (PAR & spectrum), similar nutrients and element parameters so the acclimation process is minimally stressful on the coral. I will say that a salinity creep of 1ppt would NOT likely cause an RTN event on these aquacultured acropora.

Natural sea water parameters are known values, but replicating the nutrient availability of the ocean is tougher. Replicating the light spectrum for deep water is likely tricky as well. It seems you would need to run a species tank to help them acclimate very slowly to our captive light spectrum and levels.

Jason Fox also discusses this in a few videos you can find on youtube.

Lastly, WELCOME TO REEF2REEF! We are glad you are here.

Thank you for your kind answer.

Your message is ... that wild caught acroporas are much more difficult to keep than captive bred aquacultured acros, furthermore, although deepwater acros may require more severe conditions to keep, right?

I am a beginner in acro breeding, but I would like to learn a lot from this problem.

thanks!

 

[shom]

For me they are always the first to go when something gets out of whack in the tank.

Thanks your message!

You mean deepwater acros are the first to die ?

I've seen a lot of information about them, it seem to be very difficult to keep deep water acros.

 

[shom]

One other thing for you to consider. It is a good gesture to the community that you introduce yourself in the "Meet & Greet Forum". Some of the moderators may be able to link you with other reefers in Japan.

Lastly, my son speaks Japanese and is a huge Japanophile. We traveled around Honshu for two weeks when he graduated high school. I have been in Tokyo for business 20+ times. Awesome city and wonderful people.

Thanks for the suggestion. I will!

And I see that you and your son have a connection to Japan. I'm glad.;Happy

 

[josephxsxn]

Hello,

While these are not specifically related to your question I personally believe that more issues then expected are protozoan or bacterial in nature. In these threads people have experimented with antibiotics for RTN, Brown Jelly, and more.

Experimenting with in-tank antibiotic treatments for Brown Jelly Disease

Brown Jelly Disease (BJD) is an issue many reefers have run into. Like most coral diseases, the pathogen causing BJD has not been conclusively determined. Here I will share some observations and test results supporting the idea that its caused by a bacterial pathogen, and so may be treatable...

www.reef2reef.com

Cipro treatment- Calling all Mushroom Guru's

Have a few questions and wanted some feedback on a cpl things before I began my Cipro treatment on a batch of Jawbreakers. I've read some good things on Cipro treatments for anemones as well as @Reefer1978 success with getting shrooms to re attach using Cipro treatment with success! Theres...

www.reef2reef.com

My experiences treating rapid tissue necrosis in multiple SPS species with doxycycline and amoxicillin

Hello all, I'm sure a lot of you who keep SPS have heard about the study and claims that rapid/sudden tissue necrosis (RTN/STN) is being caused (or at least assisted by) vibrio harveyi. If you haven't I suggest giving it a look as it has some pretty interesting information and could potentially...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[shom]

Hello,

While these are not specifically related to your question I personally believe that more issues then expected are protozoan or bacterial in nature. In these threads people have experimented with antibiotics for RTN, Brown Jelly, and more.

Experimenting with in-tank antibiotic treatments for Brown Jelly Disease

Brown Jelly Disease (BJD) is an issue many reefers have run into. Like most coral diseases, the pathogen causing BJD has not been conclusively determined. Here I will share some observations and test results supporting the idea that its caused by a bacterial pathogen, and so may be treatable...

www.reef2reef.com

Cipro treatment- Calling all Mushroom Guru's

Have a few questions and wanted some feedback on a cpl things before I began my Cipro treatment on a batch of Jawbreakers. I've read some good things on Cipro treatments for anemones as well as @Reefer1978 success with getting shrooms to re attach using Cipro treatment with success! Theres...

www.reef2reef.com

My experiences treating rapid tissue necrosis in multiple SPS species with doxycycline and amoxicillin

Hello all, I'm sure a lot of you who keep SPS have heard about the study and claims that rapid/sudden tissue necrosis (RTN/STN) is being caused (or at least assisted by) vibrio harveyi. If you haven't I suggest giving it a look as it has some pretty interesting information and could potentially...

www.reef2reef.com

Hi, thanks for your kindness. and thank you for sharing.

I'll check out the post you shared with me!

 

[TerraFerma]

Thanks your message!

You mean deepwater acros are the first to die ?

I've seen a lot of information about them, it seem to be very difficult to keep deep water acros.

You got it. As someone mentioned the wild/mariculture ones can do fine for several months and then just go. And when tank parameters get whacky - even the long term captive/fragged ones are the first to take damage.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Hi, thanks for your kindness. and thank you for sharing.

I'll check out the post you shared with me!

You mentioned “per Red Sea program”
Does that mean you’re using nopox?

 

[don_chuwish]

Alk and Ca are very stable? pH? To get that kind of growth they must have been, but there was no recent change?

 

[shom]

You got it. As someone mentioned the wild/mariculture ones can do fine for several months and then just go. And when tank parameters get whacky - even the long term captive/fragged ones are the first to take damage.

Thank you very much.
I see, I also understand the difficulty of wild acros.

 

[jda]

Most deepwaters are harder, but not all. Wild colonies are hard - this is probably your main issue. Colonies grown from frags are easier. Your tank needs to be very much solid and reliable to keep wild colonies.

For the most part, deepwater acropora need parameters closer to natural seawater and full spectrum lighting without many shadows.

 

[ScottB]

Most deepwaters are harder, but not all. Wild colonies are hard - this is probably your main issue. Colonies grown from frags are easier. Your tank needs to be very much solid and reliable to keep wild colonies.

For the most part, deepwater acropora need parameters closer to natural seawater and full spectrum lighting without many shadows.

I think I am missing something about lighting for deep water acropora.

Isn't spectrum lost as it travels deeper down the water column? I need to go back and look, but I feel like @Dana Riddle discussed this at some MACNA show or another. I think it was the blues that penetrated the deepest while the other colors got filtered out as you got deeper.

I would then intuit that deep water acros would struggle under full spectrum as their zooxanthella population are adapted to limited spectrum. Will try to dig around on that later tonight.

This is a cool topic, just not one I know that much about.

 

[driftin]

I think I am missing something about lighting for deep water acropora.

Isn't spectrum lost as it travels deeper down the water column? I need to go back and look, but I feel like @Dana Riddle discussed this at some MACNA show or another. I think it was the blues that penetrated the deepest while the other colors got filtered out as you got deeper.

I would then intuit that deep water acros would struggle under full spectrum as their zooxanthella population are adapted to limited spectrum. Will try to dig around on that later tonight.

This is a cool topic, just not one I know that much about.

I think "deepwater" is a misnomer, and does not often reflect where they were actually collected. Although I may be remembering that incorrectly too...

 

[Dana Riddle]

I think I am missing something about lighting for deep water acropora.

Isn't spectrum lost as it travels deeper down the water column? I need to go back and look, but I feel like @Dana Riddle discussed this at some MACNA show or another. I think it was the blues that penetrated the deepest while the other colors got filtered out as you got deeper.

I would then intuit that deep water acros would struggle under full spectrum as their zooxanthella population are adapted to limited spectrum. Will try to dig around on that later tonight.

This is a cool topic, just not one I know that much about.

See here for light transmission in 'clear' seawater.

Imitating Natural Light Quality, Intensity, and Dosage in a Reef Aquarium – Do We Really Want To?

When it comes to reef aquariums, Mother Nature has always been the de facto benchmark aquarists aspire towards. Dana investigates in great detail the quality and quantity of light over natural reefs in order to lay the groundwork to answer the age-old question: what is the best light for...

reefs.com

 

[jda]

Deepwaters do not come from deep water. The name is misleading. Most of them, like nearly all the acropora that we have in our tanks, are collected on one breath by divers with masks, or in shallow water where people can walk on the bottom.

You should research what it takes for a human to get to a depth where only blue light is present. If people go down there, other than James Cameron in a one-off specialty submarine, they bring back up a fish that they can get $5k-10k for and not a coral worth a few dollars. 30 meters is pretty serious and 150 meters is nearly unheard of.

The corals that you have in your tanks were nearly all gathered at a depth where all light is present.

 

[jda]

FWIW, the deep waters are the reason why I use mercury based lighting and keep my parameters near seawater. They are not as forgiving as some of the other corals and look a lot better under wider spectrum and grow faster and have more color contrast with highly available and lower residual building block levels.

Not all deep waters are hard, just like not all digis are easy (ORA German Blue Digi, for example, is not super easy). As a group, they are harder than most.

 

[ScottB]

Deepwaters do not come from deep water. The name is misleading. Most of them, like nearly all the acropora that we have in our tanks, are collected on one breath by divers with masks, or in shallow water where people can walk on the bottom.

You should research what it takes for a human to get to a depth where only blue light is present. If people go down there, other than James Cameron in a one-off specialty submarine, they bring back up a fish that they can get $5k-10k for and not a coral worth a few dollars. 30 meters is pretty serious and 150 meters is nearly unheard of.

The corals that you have in your tanks were nearly all gathered at a depth where all light is present.

I am glad I admitted my "deep water" ignorance at the outset. Whew! Thanks for the clarification. Would you venture a guesstimate threshold depth for a "deep water" to be legitimate classification? Or do you think this is all just marketing?