** Accidental Alk Overdose (Part A Siphon into Tank) ** (How to bring Alk Down)? Vinegar?Citric Acid? ** OTHER OPTION (Move Corals to Holding Tank)

WallyB

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** I renamed this Thread After Accident Situation has been Dealt with **


*** ALL ENDED WELL ***

----- Below is what happened as it happened ------- WITH RESOLUTION and FOLLOWUP at the end ----




Hi @Randy Holmes-Farley

** TO GET TO THE POINT *** HOW CAN I bring down Alk tomorrow? (I bought some time...to do things properly)
Vinegar? Citric Acid? SOmething else, and HOw much of either to bring down alk spike when I know ALk (since right now it's off the charts on my Salifert Test Kit **)

Tomorrow I'll find a way to determine Alk in SPS tank.


A few hours ago, for still unknown Reason, my Dosing Pump overdosed Part A ESV bi-Ionic.

I caught things in time since my PH skyrocketed and my Apex Picked it up.

2020-07-05_SpsTankAlkOverDose-PH-Spike.jpg


I had a similar thing happen years ago, and I added Vinegar to bring down alk.

I had no vinegar tonight (1/4 cup in kitchen, so I use that before I decide Plan B)

PLAN B: I removed all the Corals within an hour of the OVerdose and put into a holding tank (frag Tank)

SPS-Tank-June-2020-BeforeAlkOverDose.jpg


2020-07-05_SPS-Tank-QuickSPS-Removal.jpg


SPS are safe in Same Water Parameters before Overdose in DT (in Frag tank)
2020-07-05_SPSALkOverDose-SPS-FragTankStoreTemp.jpg


Appreciate some advice.

I think I did the best thing possible.

I'll have proof since I left 1 Duplicate Pacman SPS Frag in DT. (Will it get damaged from Spike...We'll see, it may take time)
 
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WallyB

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Here is some info.

2020-07-05_OverDoseAmountESVPartA.jpg


Looks like about 700ml of Part A of ESV Bi-Ionic went into Tank. (I'll deterimine exact amount and Alk Level Tomorrow)

Good News is Part P did not overdose, so Calcium/Mag didn't spike. (which would be tougher to get down)

I just need to bring down ALK, and then I can start putting SPS back (I think).
 

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I would do big water change.

I understand bionic has trace elements in it. I have never seen info about which part has which elements.

I would be worried about correcting alkalinity but having wacky levels of some trace elements. But I really don’t know if this is a real issue. Maybe @Randy Holmes-Farley will help enlighten us. Thank goodness we have a chemistry forum with him.

Your tank is absolutely gorgeous! Sorry you are dealing with this.
 

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I once spiked my alk from 109 up to 227. I didn’t have any water made up. It wasn’t heavily stocked with corals, but nothing actually suffered. Fish were fine, corals fine, inverts fine. Green hair algae took a hit from it which was awesome. But I would just be doing some decent water changes. There’s always a danger when adding more chemicals to react with overdosed chemicals. I guess it depends what corals you have in there and how sensitive they are.
 

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Wally, very sorry to see this. Muratic acid or sodium bisulfate (Seachem acid buffer) will also lower the alk.

I had a similar self-induced dosing incident that we talked about in my build thread. I went from about 8 to 11 dKH in the space of a few minutes. Most of my damage did not show up for several days to a few weeks, but I lost quite a few pieces. I hope by removing your corals you helped to prevent any coral deaths.
 

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Is the tank milky white? If not, the overdose is not that severe.

Vinegar and citric acid are fine to lower pH, but will not permanently lower the alkalinity. It will rise again as the organic is metabolized.

here's my blurb on overdoses from an article:


from it:



In such cases of acute overdose, here is my advice:

1. If the pH is 8.5 or lower (as it often is since a precipitation event itself reduces pH even if it was much higher to start with), there is little that can or needs to be done. Just wait a few days for the white calcium carbonate to slowly disappear. A water change is not necessary, although once the water is clear, testing calcium and especially alkalinity is in order (don’t bother to test the cloudy water as it will give false high readings as these tests detect solids even though they are not truly in solution). Few aquarists suffer the loss of organisms from such events. I’ve had several such events without any apparent losses.

2. If the pH is above 8.5, some action to reduce the pH is warranted. The higher it is, the faster and greater the needed action. Since such events may happen when few tools are available to solve them (e.g., New Year's morning when few stores are open), I’ll provide a number of options, although some are better than others. In all cases, reduce the pH only to 8.5 to avoid overshooting.

The best option is to add carbon dioxide, either by bubbling the gas directly, or by adding soda water/seltzer (or blowing into a skimmer inlet if it is your only option). At least in the normal aquarium pH range, a teaspoon of soda water per gallon of tank water will lower pH by a couple of tenths of a pH unit. Overshooting with carbon dioxide, while undesirable, is less of a concern than is overshooting with any other option.

A second option is to add vinegar. Be especially careful to not overshoot pH 8.5 or so, because when bacteria begin to metabolize the acetate, the resulting CO2 will further lower the pH, and oxygen will be consumed (equation (14)). For this reason, it is especially important to maintain aeration when using vinegar in such a fashion. I’ve added vinegar to my aquarium in similar situations without difficulty, although the pH was only marginally high and I did not need to add much.

A third rung of options involves adding a mineral acid such as muriatic acid (HCl or hydrochloric acid) or sulfuric acid. I’ve added HCl to my aquarium in similar situations without difficulty. When performing such a mineral acid treatment, be very careful not to overshoot, and to monitor the pH during any acid additions. I would intervene in this fashion only if I could monitor the pH in real time, and could add the acid to a high flow area far from any organism. Diluting the acid in water (say, 20:1 or 100:1) prior to adding it to the tank is highly recommended for the safety of both the aquarist and the tank’s inhabitants (diluting vinegar, which is already dilute, isn’t necessary). One other drawback to adding a mineral acid is that it reduces the alkalinity. In such a case, the result may be elevated calcium and reduced alkalinity that will require significant correction.
 
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WallyB

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Is the tank milky white? If not, the overdose is not that severe.

Vinegar and citric acid are fine to lower pH, but will not permanently lower the alkalinity. It will rise again as the organic is metabolized.

here's my blurb on overdoses from an article:


from it:



In such cases of acute overdose, here is my advice:

1. If the pH is 8.5 or lower (as it often is since a precipitation event itself reduces pH even if it was much higher to start with), there is little that can or needs to be done. Just wait a few days for the white calcium carbonate to slowly disappear. A water change is not necessary, although once the water is clear, testing calcium and especially alkalinity is in order (don’t bother to test the cloudy water as it will give false high readings as these tests detect solids even though they are not truly in solution). Few aquarists suffer the loss of organisms from such events. I’ve had several such events without any apparent losses.

2. If the pH is above 8.5, some action to reduce the pH is warranted. The higher it is, the faster and greater the needed action. Since such events may happen when few tools are available to solve them (e.g., New Year's morning when few stores are open), I’ll provide a number of options, although some are better than others. In all cases, reduce the pH only to 8.5 to avoid overshooting.

The best option is to add carbon dioxide, either by bubbling the gas directly, or by adding soda water/seltzer (or blowing into a skimmer inlet if it is your only option). At least in the normal aquarium pH range, a teaspoon of soda water per gallon of tank water will lower pH by a couple of tenths of a pH unit. Overshooting with carbon dioxide, while undesirable, is less of a concern than is overshooting with any other option.

A second option is to add vinegar. Be especially careful to not overshoot pH 8.5 or so, because when bacteria begin to metabolize the acetate, the resulting CO2 will further lower the pH, and oxygen will be consumed (equation (14)). For this reason, it is especially important to maintain aeration when using vinegar in such a fashion. I’ve added vinegar to my aquarium in similar situations without difficulty, although the pH was only marginally high and I did not need to add much.

A third rung of options involves adding a mineral acid such as muriatic acid (HCl or hydrochloric acid) or sulfuric acid. I’ve added HCl to my aquarium in similar situations without difficulty. When performing such a mineral acid treatment, be very careful not to overshoot, and to monitor the pH during any acid additions. I would intervene in this fashion only if I could monitor the pH in real time, and could add the acid to a high flow area far from any organism. Diluting the acid in water (say, 20:1 or 100:1) prior to adding it to the tank is highly recommended for the safety of both the aquarist and the tank’s inhabitants (diluting vinegar, which is already dilute, isn’t necessary). One other drawback to adding a mineral acid is that it reduces the alkalinity. In such a case, the result may be elevated calcium and reduced alkalinity that will require significant correction.
Thanks @Randy Holmes-Farley,

The Tank today is crystal clear.

NOTE: Only Part A went it, so no Precipitation like when I had Both Part Over Dose in past.

PH came back down to Normal.
2020-07-05_OverDoseAlkPhNextDay.jpg


ALL the Moved SPS are doing fine and even the SPS in DT are fine (Time will tell).

My Greatest concern is OVerDose On Part A (Trace Elements in ESV).

This is a 110Gallon Tank. I was dosing only 30ml a day. Last Night 700ml of Part A went in.

I think my best best, safest and easiest remedy is just MEDIUM Water Change and Monitor Water.
- Then Follow up with some Nutrient and Bacteria replenish (I have ZeoBak and plenty of Coral, Fish Food and Aminos)
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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Thanks @Randy Holmes-Farley,

The Tank today is crystal clear.

NOTE: Only Part A went it, so no Precipitation like when I had Both Part Over Dose in past.

PH came back down to Normal.
2020-07-05_OverDoseAlkPhNextDay.jpg


ALL the Moved SPS are doing fine and even the SPS in DT are fine (Time will tell).

My Greatest concern is OVerDose On Part A (Trace Elements in ESV).

This is a 110Gallon Tank. I was dosing only 30ml a day. Last Night 700ml of Part A went in.

I think my best best, safest and easiest remedy is just Large Water Change
- Then Follow up with some Nutrient and Bacteria replenish (I have ZeoBak and plenty of Coral, Fish Food and Aminos)

There is zero concern over trace element overdose from overdosing B-ionic. The amount there is tiny, like a tiny water change, by design.
 
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WallyB

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Might as well find out the Scientific Answer with a Accurate Test.

Lucky I have a ICP test handy. That will answer the Trace Element Question.

2020-07-05_AlkOverDoseICPTest.jpg


I'm going to take advantage of this unique Situation, and Do a really Nice Cleanup of the Tank before I restore.

Gotta keep a positive mind, and take things SLOWLY.
 
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WallyB

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There is zero concern over trace element overdose from overdosing B-ionic. The amount there is tiny, like a tiny water change, by design.
ok. So then all I need is to wait patiently for Alk to come down.
Water changes can't hurt (to move things foward a bit).... and I'll be dusting off the Coral Free tank anyway.

My FOCUS will be to CLOSELY watch the 35 Gallon Frag Tank LOADED WITH CORALS. To ensure it's stable.

It does look Georgeous right now. :)
 

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Might as well find out the Scientific Answer with a Accurate Test.

Lucky I have a ICP test handy. That will answer the Trace Element Question.

lol


No it won't, unless you have a before and after test.

We know the answer, unless you got a mismade batch of B-ionic. It doesn't raise trace elements. It may even lower them, despite having them in it.

I discuss it here:



One issue that has confused some reef keepers, however, is the presence of trace elements. Assuming that these products are actually formulated with every ion such that a true natural seawater residue remained (let’s call this the “ideal” product), then it will necessarily contain such ions as copper. Since copper is elevated in some reef tanks, and is toxic to many invertebrates, reef keepers have wrongly criticized this method as adding more copper. That’s actually not what would happen. Since these products leave a natural seawater residue, and since copper may be elevated in concentration in many reef tanks relative to seawater, then using these “ideal” products will actually LOWER copper levels because when the increase in salinity is corrected, the copper will drop.

For example:

You have copper in your aquarium at 4 ppb and salinity of S=35.

You add a two part additive that over the course of a month raises salinity to S=36, and raises copper to 4.02 ppb.

Then you correct the salinity back to S=35 by diluting everything in the tank with fresh water, and you get a final copper concentration of 3.9 ppb.

Does this happen in real products and not “ideal” products? I have no idea. But the statement by manufacturers that it contains all ions in natural ratios, including copper, should not be viewed as a concern that it is exacerbating a heavy metal problem.

The rise in salinity of these products over time can be very roughly calculated, though there are several reasons why this calculation is only an estimate. For every 1000 meq of alkalinity added in this fashion (and the matching amount of calcium) these products will deliver on the order of 60 grams of other ions to the tank. In a tank with a low calcification demand (defined later to be 18.3 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (0.4 dKH/day)) this effect will raise the salinity by 3 ppt per year (compared to a normal salinity of S ~35). In a high demand tank (defined later to be 219 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (4.4 dKH/day)), the salinity will rise by 35 ppt in a year, or approximately doubling the salinity. Consequently, the salinity should be monitored closely in using these types of additives, especially in a tank with high calcification rates.
 
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WallyB

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lol


No it won't, unless you have a before and after test.

We know the answer, unless you got a mismade batch of B-ionic. It doesn't raise trace elements. It may even lower them, despite having them in it.

I discuss it here:



One issue that has confused some reef keepers, however, is the presence of trace elements. Assuming that these products are actually formulated with every ion such that a true natural seawater residue remained (let’s call this the “ideal” product), then it will necessarily contain such ions as copper. Since copper is elevated in some reef tanks, and is toxic to many invertebrates, reef keepers have wrongly criticized this method as adding more copper. That’s actually not what would happen. Since these products leave a natural seawater residue, and since copper may be elevated in concentration in many reef tanks relative to seawater, then using these “ideal” products will actually LOWER copper levels because when the increase in salinity is corrected, the copper will drop.

For example:

You have copper in your aquarium at 4 ppb and salinity of S=35.

You add a two part additive that over the course of a month raises salinity to S=36, and raises copper to 4.02 ppb.

Then you correct the salinity back to S=35 by diluting everything in the tank with fresh water, and you get a final copper concentration of 3.9 ppb.

Does this happen in real products and not “ideal” products? I have no idea. But the statement by manufacturers that it contains all ions in natural ratios, including copper, should not be viewed as a concern that it is exacerbating a heavy metal problem.

The rise in salinity of these products over time can be very roughly calculated, though there are several reasons why this calculation is only an estimate. For every 1000 meq of alkalinity added in this fashion (and the matching amount of calcium) these products will deliver on the order of 60 grams of other ions to the tank. In a tank with a low calcification demand (defined later to be 18.3 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (0.4 dKH/day)) this effect will raise the salinity by 3 ppt per year (compared to a normal salinity of S ~35). In a high demand tank (defined later to be 219 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (4.4 dKH/day)), the salinity will rise by 35 ppt in a year, or approximately doubling the salinity. Consequently, the salinity should be monitored closely in using these types of additives, especially in a tank with high calcification rates.
Ok. I'll save the ICP test for after I get things Stable.
I'll have perfect water after a few Water changes. I'm preparing my first 30% WC change for tonight.

I'll take advantage of the 30Gal Extract to Sweep the Tank from Detritus and A little rock scrubbing.
 
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WallyB

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Frag Tank does look Great...with all the New Corals and Rocks.

THe Davinci Clown Pair and Copperband (Frag Tank Resisdents) are Having a Blast.

2020-07-05_FragTankLoaded.jpg


If Corals Make it. The New DT Clean-Up may be a good outcome after a bad situation.
 
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WallyB

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I THINK I FOUND THE CAUSE of Part A OVER DOSE ( Siphon happened and Dosing Pump needs new inner tube)

I first thought I programmed the Doser Wrong since I did make a adjustment day before.
Not true. It's running perfect.

This happend just after I did a water change.
When I turned off Return pump the Sump Filled quite high and I recently move my dosing lines a bit lower.

The Dosing lines got submerged and maybe a dose happened at that point.
That started a siphon and MY BAD (my Dosing Container is slightly higher than my sump).
Plus I think the dosing Head Inner Tube may have worn out (not pinched properly).

When it siphoned the Part A, it actually stopped at Level with Sump Full (ie Container stopped siphon when level with Sump)

Lessons learned.

1) Keep Dosing Containers below dosing level.
2) Change Dosing Head Innner tubes before 5+ years.
 
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Is the tank milky white? If not, the overdose is not that severe.

Vinegar and citric acid are fine to lower pH, but will not permanently lower the alkalinity. It will rise again as the organic is metabolized.

here's my blurb on overdoses from an article:


from it:



In such cases of acute overdose, here is my advice:

1. If the pH is 8.5 or lower (as it often is since a precipitation event itself reduces pH even if it was much higher to start with), there is little that can or needs to be done. Just wait a few days for the white calcium carbonate to slowly disappear. A water change is not necessary, although once the water is clear, testing calcium and especially alkalinity is in order (don’t bother to test the cloudy water as it will give false high readings as these tests detect solids even though they are not truly in solution). Few aquarists suffer the loss of organisms from such events. I’ve had several such events without any apparent losses.

2. If the pH is above 8.5, some action to reduce the pH is warranted. The higher it is, the faster and greater the needed action. Since such events may happen when few tools are available to solve them (e.g., New Year's morning when few stores are open), I’ll provide a number of options, although some are better than others. In all cases, reduce the pH only to 8.5 to avoid overshooting.

The best option is to add carbon dioxide, either by bubbling the gas directly, or by adding soda water/seltzer (or blowing into a skimmer inlet if it is your only option). At least in the normal aquarium pH range, a teaspoon of soda water per gallon of tank water will lower pH by a couple of tenths of a pH unit. Overshooting with carbon dioxide, while undesirable, is less of a concern than is overshooting with any other option.

A second option is to add vinegar. Be especially careful to not overshoot pH 8.5 or so, because when bacteria begin to metabolize the acetate, the resulting CO2 will further lower the pH, and oxygen will be consumed (equation (14)). For this reason, it is especially important to maintain aeration when using vinegar in such a fashion. I’ve added vinegar to my aquarium in similar situations without difficulty, although the pH was only marginally high and I did not need to add much.


A third rung of options involves adding a mineral acid such as muriatic acid (HCl or hydrochloric acid) or sulfuric acid. I’ve added HCl to my aquarium in similar situations without difficulty. When performing such a mineral acid treatment, be very careful not to overshoot, and to monitor the pH during any acid additions. I would intervene in this fashion only if I could monitor the pH in real time, and could add the acid to a high flow area far from any organism. Diluting the acid in water (say, 20:1 or 100:1) prior to adding it to the tank is highly recommended for the safety of both the aquarist and the tank’s inhabitants (diluting vinegar, which is already dilute, isn’t necessary). One other drawback to adding a mineral acid is that it reduces the alkalinity. In such a case, the result may be elevated calcium and reduced alkalinity that will require significant correction.
@Randy Holmes-Farley

Am I missing the Point. Are you trying to state that PH is my highest concern. Not my Alk Spike.
My PH is back to normal. My corals are in another tank.

I see your three options below.
(NOTE: no Corals in Tank.....Only Fish. I understand Watching PH is important, even for fish)

Soda Water? (like Bubbly Pop, in liquid form.Bottles) I'll read up.

Vinegar I've tried in past. May consider that. Downside is the Bacteria issue.

However can I do something with the Muriatic Acid. I'm making up 60 Gals of New Salt Water.
Red Sea Blue Bucket, Which will mix to Alk=8dkh at 35ppt.

If my DT alk is 14dkh and I mix in 50% new Water 8 dkh, that will only bring me down to ALK=11dKH.

Can I prepare the New Water by adding Muratic Acid. To bring down Alk to (leT'S Pick 5 dkh)
The Water CHange will bring Alk down to (14+5)/2 = 9.5 dkH and then I wait out the Drop to 8.0 Naturally.
The Muratic Acid will be properly mixed before adding new Water into Tank.

I am trying to speed this up since I'm going away This Friday for a week.

Or is it better to Add Muratic Acid to DT (slowly, bit by bit till Alk is down to Target 8.0-8.5)?
 
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I have had 10 gallons of Kalk pump into my reef (several times). I tend to move a little slower when I overdose kalk. Yes the alk will go very high, but it goes up slowly and my corals seem to adjust. I would think pulling them all out and dumping them into water that is 3-4DKH lower may do more harm than good. Given time, the alk will come back down.
Cheers! Mark
 
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