Actual available Nutrient levels in a Totally Healthy abundant Reef packed with fish and critters?

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LRT

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How many of us can test for all the forms of carbon, organic and inorganic and particulate; all the forms of nitrogen, organic and inorganic and particulate; and all the forms of phosphorus, organic, inorganic and particulate? It is a lot more complicated than just nitrate and phosphate.

Ammonium Uptake by Symbiotic and Aposymbiotic Reef Corals (DIN)

Urea uptake (DON)

Amnio Acids Uptake (DON)

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

DIP DOP POP.jpg
Effects of Nitrate.jpg
Hi @Timfish Thank you for this post I need to get to reading through these links. I love stuff like this.
I have to ask do all these papers just refference back to old papers and other peoples discoveries and such?
I seen your post in another thread about the effects of Nitrates on skeletons in corals.
Is there anything out there on the effects of Nitrates in soft corals?
I have this mushroom that did absolutely nothing in 0-5ppm Nitrates and looked like this-
20200801_155405 (1).jpg


I bumped my Nitrates up to around 15-20ppm and it exploded within a matter of maybe 6-8 weeks-
20200606_164812.jpg

20200915_191148.jpg

To now-
20210203_162828.jpg

Only other changes was a slight increase of maybe 25par but has to be considered i guess but mushroom acts a little deflated in less Nitrates.
Is it cancerous amd should I be concerned that this shroom is gonna just die on me sometime?

EDIT because I forgot the most important picture. Before I raised nitrates. Transformation was pretty dramatic.
 
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Timfish

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Hi @Timfish Thank you for this post I need to get to reading through these links. I love stuff like this.
I have to ask do all these papers just refference back to old papers and other peoples discoveries and such?
I seen your post in another thread about the effects of Nitrates on skeletons in corals.
Is there anything out there on the effects of Nitrates in soft corals?
I have this mushroom that did absolutely nothing in 0-5ppm Nitrates and looked like this-
. . .
I bumped my Nitrates up to around 15-20ppm and it exploded within a matter of maybe 6-8 weeks and looks like this now
. . .
Only other changes was a slight increase of maybe 25par but has to be considered i guess but mushroom acts a little deflated in less Nitrates.
Is it cancerous amd should I be concerned that this shroom is gonna just die on me sometime?

You're welcome! Most of the papers I refference are published papers by the researchers who did the research.

I think Rachel Wright's research with Acropora millipora shows ideally we need specific husbandry data at the genotype level if not also at the variety level.

Regarding your mushroom what would have happened if you didn't dose nitrates Would it have done the same after 6-8 weeks? Because it can take weeks to months for an animal acclimate.

Many soft corals have calcium spicules in their tissue. It seems reasonable to me, without research to the contrary, it should be expected to affect their calcification also.

The second problem with nitrates (Rohwer discusses this in his book "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas") is it removes the corals control of the reproduction rate of the zooxanthellae which frees up most of the photosynthates to be used by the animal. Considering a significant portion of a the mucus coating an animal with algal simbionts is derived from the photosynthates, the mucus coating is an essential part of the animals immune system compramising it by reducing the amount of photosynthates available for it doesn't seem a wise thing to do. Some coral obviously can adapt or adjust to high nitrates but that doesn't mean it's what's best for their health.

As far as the "bubbling" what you're seeing is caused mostly by excess blue light making it a "Bounce" mushroom. This will happen with other corals also. I've thought in the past like many others it might be a virus (kinda like illegal broken tulips) but research still needs to be done.
 
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You're welcome! Most of the papers I refference are published papers by the researchers who did the research.

I think Rachel Wright's research with Acropora millipora shows ideally we need specific husbandry data at the genotype level if not also at the variety level.

Regarding your mushroom what would have happened if you didn't dose nitrates Would it have done the same after 6-8 weeks? Because it can take weeks to months for an animal acclimate.

Many soft corals have calcium spicules in their tissue. It seems reasonable to me, without research to the contrary, it should be expected to affect their calcification also.

The second problem with nitrates (Rohwer discusses this in his book "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas") is it removes the corals control of the reproduction rate of the zooxanthellae which frees up most of the photosynthates to be used by the animal. Considering a significant portion of a the mucus coating an animal with algal simbionts is derived from the photosynthates, the mucus coating is an essential part of the animals immune system compramising it by reducing the amount of photosynthates available for it doesn't seem a wise thing to do. Some coral obviously can adapt or adjust to high nitrates but that doesn't mean it's what's best for their health.

As far as the "bubbling" what you're seeing is caused mostly by excess blue light making it a "Bounce" mushroom. This will happen with other corals also. I've thought in the past like many others it might be a virus (kinda like illegal broken tulips) but research still needs to be done.
Thanks Tim. You know I cant say positively that that shroom would have done what it did with or without elevating nitrates. Considering its most likely a Jersey bounce that morphed to what it now from what it was then and I haven't seen another morph like it.
And that shroom did sit in my system for a few months so I think it was pretty well acclimated as well.

You think its the heavy blue lights causing the "bubbles" on bounces?
My wife is friends with a diver that posts shrooms coming out of ocean that are already bouncing. Is it something in the blue spectrum that makes them bounce more? Is it genetic and the blue light enhances that?

That being said I can say positively that this shroom that started as a regular old school Jawbreaker. It went through a severe Nitrate overdose and morphed into what looks like an entirely different shroom. Went from regular JB orange to Green. The only thing that I can think made this shroom morph on me where the super elevated Nitrate levels but I guess I can't say that for certain. Although I've never seen a green Poletti JB ever posted. And I'm not doing anything out of the safe, normal reefing habits being passed down besides maybe going outside that a little raising nitrates as I see some shrooms do better at higher than the lower suggested nutrient levels.
Here's the shroom before Nitrate overdose when I recieved it-
Tucked under the rock
92763777_2847286735355028_4465241274449920_n (2).jpg

Here it is today-
20210212_154445.jpg
20210409_145955.jpg


Do you know if super elevated Nitrate levels are known to cause morphs? I did have a baby from this shroom that was taking the green color from the mom.
What are morphs anyway? Is it genetic defect?
Tried to start a thread on that but didn't get much feedback.

Appreciate your input.
Thank you sir
 

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Here's two more recent articles that you might be interested in. I wanted to send through something more relevant, but most are older papers because Darwin's paradox has been known for a while.

These two papers are recent and talk more about the impact of sponges on coral reef biogeochemical cycling, but still deals with Darwin's paradox well, so should be pretty informative.
 

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Timfish

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@Azendenkae Thanks for the links, I've posted the first one by de Goeij numerous time but I haven't seen the second one.

@LRT Well, I don't have answers for all your questions or your observations. But the photobiology of corals is very complex. Varables that will affect the photobiology and potentially melanin, fluorescing and chromo proteins an animal with algal simbionts makes include spectrum, intensity, clade or species of algal simbiont, pathogens, microbial populations including algal population, nutrients, and certainly others as there's a lot we still don't understand.

But it seems clear to me from what you've described environmental stress (which could be light, microbial, nutrients and ? ) caused a shift in the flourescing protiens and likely chromo proteins your mushroom makes. How this affects it's long term survival and ability to adapt to changes in the future is anybody's guess. (How it affects it's sexual health, which might be the best indicator of a healthy animal, is rarely considered and is also anybody's guess.)

As far as blue light and "bounce", blue light is a factor in making a bounce, but it's not the only one. This paper looked at a blister on a Hollywood Stunner that might shed some light on what's happening but the authors acknowledge there's a lot left unknown. Here's pics of superman rohodactys in one of my systems with both non "bounce" and "bounce" individuals depending on intensity and spectrum. The "bounce" individuals had higher PAR unfiltered by the glass while the non "bounce" had lower PAR that was filtered through the front glass. (Here's a link to the system, lights are mounted in the cieling in front of the tank.)

Bounce Rhodactis.jpg
 

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