After getting serious about Alk/Ca/Mag, interesting results

[HeyLookItsCaps]

So I have never been too serious about testing my tank (old habits), however I decided I needed to get with the decade. I bought a trident and it fixes my semi color blindness issue.

so with that being said I unknowingly had a separated batch of IO that jumped my alk to 15+/Ca 600+/mag 1600+ and that’s why I started monitoring.

Over the course of the last month I have done 2 gal auto water changes and switched salt to tropic Marin reef pro which has resulted in me getting the parameters in satisfactory rang

my results are now

alk - 9.5 (my target)
Mag - 130 (target of 1325)
Ca - 539 (this one has me stumped)

I have a heavily populated mixed reef and after getting my Alk down below 10 my sps are visibly growing every day with recordable change. This clearly tells me calcium is being used but it’s still so much higher than my target (425).

I am set up to dose B-ionic 2 part, but I keep holding back on starting the schedule until the calcium gets to near what I want. I know 1 part is Alk and the other is ca/mag together, and if you notice my results the mag is below target. Should I dose just mag for now until ca drops more?

Would love thoughts/opinions/feedback thanks!

 

[MnFish1]

I would double check your ca results. Then maybe just dose alkalinity for a bit. Fwiw your calcium should not cause problems at this level. Or the mg

 

[MnFish1]

Ps and double check your alkalinity as well

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There's no real advantage to being at 420 ppm calcium vs 539 ppm calcium.

Assuming it is accurate, just let it drop slowly.

 

[HeyLookItsCaps]

There's no real advantage to being at 420 ppm calcium vs 539 ppm calcium.

Assuming it is accurate, just let it drop slowly.

Gotcha, my question is should I start dosing the ca/mag to get my mag back up toward target? Or just let it keep falling for a bit?

thank you for joining the convo

 

[HeyLookItsCaps]

I would double check your ca results. Then maybe just dose alkalinity for a bit. Fwiw your calcium should not cause problems at this level. Or the mg

Gotcha, that’s great. I’ll have my wife do a traditional test since she can see better

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Both calcium (539 ppm) and magnesium (1309 ppm) are fine and require no dosing.

 

[HeyLookItsCaps]

Both calcium (539 ppm) and magnesium (1309 ppm) are fine and require no dosing.

At what point should I start adding to correct? What’s my “bottom line”?

thanks again

 

[X-37B]

I would just dose the esv part 1 for now. The ca will fall over time. Mag should not fall that much. If it does you can add esv mag to bring it up.
Once you reach your target levels begin equal amounts of 2 part.

 

[arking_mark]

One recommendation I have is that you should use a salt that matches (or is closer) your desired parameters. Tropic Marin Pro has approx. 7° KH, calcium approx. 440 ppm, magnesium approx. 1350 ppm.

 

[HeyLookItsCaps]

One recommendation I have is that you should use a salt that matches (or is closer) your desired parameters. Tropic Marin Pro has approx. 7° KH, calcium approx. 440 ppm, magnesium approx. 1350 ppm.

Thats very true, which is why I was surprised to see the alk drop but not so much the calcium. You’d figure they would fall in some sort of pattern. I will eventually adjust to your opinion I just didn’t want it to be too fast. Which is why I’m also mic I water changing instead of big %ages

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thats very true, which is why I was surprised to see the alk drop but not so much the calcium. You’d figure they would fall in some sort of pattern.

It likely does, but the effect is expected to be much more for alk than calcium.

That is the first "reason" that folks think they are getting unmatched declines:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Apparent Excess Demand for Alkalinity

One of the most common complaints of new aquarists is that their aquaria seem to need more alkalinity than their balanced additive system, such as limewater, is supplying. While there are reasons this may actually be the case over the long term (these will be detailed later in this article), frequently these aquarists are seeing a "chemical mirage" rather than a real excess demand for alkalinity.

One of the interesting features of seawater is that it contains a lot more calcium than alkalinity. By this I mean that if all of the calcium in seawater (420 ppm; 10.5 meq/L) were to be precipitated as calcium carbonate, it would consume 21 meq/L of alkalinity (nearly 10 times as much as is present in natural seawater). In a less drastic scenario, let's say that calcium carbonate is formed from aquarium water starting with an alkalinity of 3 meq/L that it is allowed to drop to 2 meq/L (a 33% drop). How much has the calcium declined? It is a surprise to many people to learn that the calcium would drop by only 20 ppm (5%). Consequently, many aquarists observe that their calcium levels are relatively stable (within their ability to reproducibly test it), but alkalinity can vary up and down substantially. This is exactly what would be expected, given that the aquarium already has such a large reservoir of calcium.

So the first "deviation" from the rule of calcium and alkalinity balance really isn't a deviation at all. If an aquarist is supplying a balanced additive to his aquarium, and calcium seems stable but alkalinity is declining, it may very well be that what is needed is more of the balanced additive, not just alkalinity. This scenario should be assumed as the most likely explanation for most aquarists who should look for more esoteric explanations for alkalinity decline only if calcium RISES substantially while alkalinity falls. Likewise, if alkalinity is rising and calcium seems stable when using a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive system, the most likely explanation is that too much of the additive system is being used.

The real imbalance effects described later in this article take effect slowly, and are manifested over weeks, months and years. This short term "chemical mirage" caused simply by the mathematics of calcium and alkalinity additions can be seen in a single addition. Any effect that develops rapidly over the course of a few days is almost certainly not a true imbalance.

The following scenarios show what can happen to a reef aquarium whose dosage with a balanced additive system does not match its demand. Table 1 shows what can happen when the dosing is inadequate. Alkalinity drops fairly rapidly. After two days, many aquarists might conclude that they need additional alkalinity, when in reality, they need more of both calcium and alkalinity to stabilize the system.

Table 2 shows what happens when too much of a balanced additive is added. After a few days, many aquarists would conclude that alkalinity is rising too much, but that calcium is fairly stable. Again, what is needed is less of the balanced additive, not just less alkalinity.

 

[HeyLookItsCaps]

It likely does, but the effect is expected to be much more for alk than calcium.

That is the first "reason" that folks think they are getting unmatched declines:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Apparent Excess Demand for Alkalinity

One of the most common complaints of new aquarists is that their aquaria seem to need more alkalinity than their balanced additive system, such as limewater, is supplying. While there are reasons this may actually be the case over the long term (these will be detailed later in this article), frequently these aquarists are seeing a "chemical mirage" rather than a real excess demand for alkalinity.

One of the interesting features of seawater is that it contains a lot more calcium than alkalinity. By this I mean that if all of the calcium in seawater (420 ppm; 10.5 meq/L) were to be precipitated as calcium carbonate, it would consume 21 meq/L of alkalinity (nearly 10 times as much as is present in natural seawater). In a less drastic scenario, let's say that calcium carbonate is formed from aquarium water starting with an alkalinity of 3 meq/L that it is allowed to drop to 2 meq/L (a 33% drop). How much has the calcium declined? It is a surprise to many people to learn that the calcium would drop by only 20 ppm (5%). Consequently, many aquarists observe that their calcium levels are relatively stable (within their ability to reproducibly test it), but alkalinity can vary up and down substantially. This is exactly what would be expected, given that the aquarium already has such a large reservoir of calcium.

So the first "deviation" from the rule of calcium and alkalinity balance really isn't a deviation at all. If an aquarist is supplying a balanced additive to his aquarium, and calcium seems stable but alkalinity is declining, it may very well be that what is needed is more of the balanced additive, not just alkalinity. This scenario should be assumed as the most likely explanation for most aquarists who should look for more esoteric explanations for alkalinity decline only if calcium RISES substantially while alkalinity falls. Likewise, if alkalinity is rising and calcium seems stable when using a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive system, the most likely explanation is that too much of the additive system is being used.

The real imbalance effects described later in this article take effect slowly, and are manifested over weeks, months and years. This short term "chemical mirage" caused simply by the mathematics of calcium and alkalinity additions can be seen in a single addition. Any effect that develops rapidly over the course of a few days is almost certainly not a true imbalance.

The following scenarios show what can happen to a reef aquarium whose dosage with a balanced additive system does not match its demand. Table 1 shows what can happen when the dosing is inadequate. Alkalinity drops fairly rapidly. After two days, many aquarists might conclude that they need additional alkalinity, when in reality, they need more of both calcium and alkalinity to stabilize the system.

Table 2 shows what happens when too much of a balanced additive is added. After a few days, many aquarists would conclude that alkalinity is rising too much, but that calcium is fairly stable. Again, what is needed is less of the balanced additive, not just less alkalinity.

Wow, thank you so much for writing this out. Makes complete sense and is extremely useful. You don’t get paid enough! Ha

 

[arking_mark]

Thats very true, which is why I was surprised to see the alk drop but not so much the calcium. You’d figure they would fall in some sort of pattern. I will eventually adjust to your opinion I just didn’t want it to be too fast. Which is why I’m also mic I water changing instead of big %ages

I also switched over to Tropic Marin Pro awhile ago. I have 1% daily AWC and I just let everything fall to TM Pro parameters...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wow, thank you so much for writing this out. Makes complete sense and is extremely useful. You don’t get paid enough! Ha

You're welcome.

Happy Reefing.

 

[MnFish1]

It likely does, but the effect is expected to be much more for alk than calcium.

That is the first "reason" that folks think they are getting unmatched declines:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Apparent Excess Demand for Alkalinity

One of the most common complaints of new aquarists is that their aquaria seem to need more alkalinity than their balanced additive system, such as limewater, is supplying. While there are reasons this may actually be the case over the long term (these will be detailed later in this article), frequently these aquarists are seeing a "chemical mirage" rather than a real excess demand for alkalinity.

One of the interesting features of seawater is that it contains a lot more calcium than alkalinity. By this I mean that if all of the calcium in seawater (420 ppm; 10.5 meq/L) were to be precipitated as calcium carbonate, it would consume 21 meq/L of alkalinity (nearly 10 times as much as is present in natural seawater). In a less drastic scenario, let's say that calcium carbonate is formed from aquarium water starting with an alkalinity of 3 meq/L that it is allowed to drop to 2 meq/L (a 33% drop). How much has the calcium declined? It is a surprise to many people to learn that the calcium would drop by only 20 ppm (5%). Consequently, many aquarists observe that their calcium levels are relatively stable (within their ability to reproducibly test it), but alkalinity can vary up and down substantially. This is exactly what would be expected, given that the aquarium already has such a large reservoir of calcium.

So the first "deviation" from the rule of calcium and alkalinity balance really isn't a deviation at all. If an aquarist is supplying a balanced additive to his aquarium, and calcium seems stable but alkalinity is declining, it may very well be that what is needed is more of the balanced additive, not just alkalinity. This scenario should be assumed as the most likely explanation for most aquarists who should look for more esoteric explanations for alkalinity decline only if calcium RISES substantially while alkalinity falls. Likewise, if alkalinity is rising and calcium seems stable when using a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive system, the most likely explanation is that too much of the additive system is being used.

The real imbalance effects described later in this article take effect slowly, and are manifested over weeks, months and years. This short term "chemical mirage" caused simply by the mathematics of calcium and alkalinity additions can be seen in a single addition. Any effect that develops rapidly over the course of a few days is almost certainly not a true imbalance.

The following scenarios show what can happen to a reef aquarium whose dosage with a balanced additive system does not match its demand. Table 1 shows what can happen when the dosing is inadequate. Alkalinity drops fairly rapidly. After two days, many aquarists might conclude that they need additional alkalinity, when in reality, they need more of both calcium and alkalinity to stabilize the system.

Table 2 shows what happens when too much of a balanced additive is added. After a few days, many aquarists would conclude that alkalinity is rising too much, but that calcium is fairly stable. Again, what is needed is less of the balanced additive, not just less alkalinity.

This is an excellent Answer!!!!!! And it is exactly what happened when my apex dose dumped a liter of BRS CaCl and a liter of Na Carbonate into my tank overnight. The alkalinity climbed to 22 and the Ca to about 560 (from 500). The alkalinity now (2 months or so later) - with no dosing - is now down to about 11 - and the Ca is about 500. (I had just done a 40% water change before these results)