Algae infested test tank - glucose + vinegar experiment

[sixty_reefer]

@Miami Reef if you really are serious about the reason for this thread being to run a ULNS without dinoflagellates, then you should be looking ant upgrading your filtration.

example:

roller filter
Reasonable sized protein skimmer
Plenty of surface area for nitrifying bacteria in the sump and display
Good strong flow in the display and sump
Adequate sand grain (no sand would be better)
No Refugium
no dissolved organic carbon dosing
feed your fish and not the system
Plenty of coral in display

this are just some of the basics that aquarists implement to keep organic nutrients out of the system (not allowing them to build up) and promote a good surface area for nitrifying bacteria without having to compete for space with heterotrophic bacteria. Yes they do compete for space and Lasse is fairly knowledgeable on that subject.

 

[Miami Reef]

Thanks @sixty_reefer

 

[Miami Reef]

There is still organic matter in this tank. I couldn’t remove 100% of it.

Now we just wait and see what develops.

I’ll dose 1ppm nitrate.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Did the dinoflagellates come back?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I will return the foxface and get an invert.

The tank is heavily aerated with a powerhead.

Reason I dont have a foxface. Last one I had, within two hours had a 90 head rock of bob marley zoa down to maybe 18 of them and as I approached the tank , he was mowing on them as if they were food pellets.

 

[Miami Reef]

Did the dinoflagellates come back?

It’s too soon. The tank still looks clean.

I will update once I start seeing new growth on the glass.

 

[KrisReef]

Thank you!

I am not anywhere near a doctor. People around me say I should’ve been a scientist though. I do like science a lot.


I’m thinking of testing the parameters, scraping all the glass, and siphon out the junk/change out the filter pad.

I want to see what will grow with new territory.

Edit: just tested this:

PO4: 0.04ppm
Nitrate: 0.0

Look at the filter floss:

Thanks for posting this update. I went to the beach today and after seeing your dirty water it reminded me to take a shower. You may not be a Dr. but you are a good public servant.

 

[Ohmegg]

If you see some interesting results the best way to take the experiment to next level would be to isolate a single type of algae, culture it in its own tank, then split the culture into a control tank and one getting the carbon source with all other parameters the same. Heck, you could even submit the write up to a peer reviewed journal (isolating a single algae and keeping parameters consistent would be no easy task however).

 

[KrisReef]

Am I doing a bad job with this experiment? I feel like I’m disappointing everyone.

Sometimes I assume everyone is thinking negative of me, so I’m going to be blunt and ask for your opinions. I am trying not to introduce too many variables, that’s why I’m “slow” when trying to add your suggestions.

I really am trying my best to not add a lot of variables. I never intentionally dosed N nor P.

I am testing my water as often as you guys want me to.

I hope I’m not disappointing anyone.

Miami Reef
Screw the public if they don't like your experiment thread and postings or one tank experiment. As a scientist I don't expect hobbists to have 5 replications of a tank, a well thought out designed experiment with hypothesis, or even single variables being manipulated at one time. This is a hobby experiment. If we are reading it you are succeeding.

Someone else chimed in with a comment with a few pointers regarding your observations and methods and expectations and if my english teacher read this experiment she would criticise my run on sentence, but only if she was grading it and trying to improve my English. You are not a teacher of English, you are a hobbist posting a fun observation experiment. We are learning from your efforts and a careful reader will pick up information from this adventure.

I have "peers" at work who have designed worse experiments and published them in scientific journals. I mentioned to one of them (my boss at the time) that he needed to randomize the experiment. He changed a few things, but three years later a statistician had to rework the data set and take random samples from the data to fix the error. It got published but he always thought I was a jerk for telling him that his methods needed to be improved to gather real data.

I'm telling you that your method is interesting to read, but more importantly I am telling you that more good science would happen in the world if people did what your are doing before they try and make a proper scientific investigation. You are laying good ground work, I've leaned a few things (and I need to go back and read some of the earlier posts again- My mind struggle to grasp and hold knowledge ) but you also posted that you are not comfortable posting some question on here.

My too, I just didn't say it. Your thread, as was pointed out much earlier by someone else, is helpful. Helpful Is good, thanks for this thread. Its making my head think about things and that improves my functioning.

When you start to think about what other poeple are thinking, please remind yourself that you can't know what they are thinking, and then remember to tell yourself this; "Kris Reef likes my posts!"

I am certain I am not alone, and I have to tell myself similar reminders all day. Don't let your mind, or the devil who is whispering in your ear tell you any more feces. Take charge of your thoughts, and remember that some people like what you do and who you are. I'm just one person, but if what I think matters then remeber to tell yourself I think you are fantastic, and so is this thread, or it used to be until I hyjacked it with this rant.

BTW, I was catching up reading which is why I posted "thanks for the reminder to take a shower." then I read your next post of self doubt and you kinda pizza'd mythought process. We are back on track now, post more for my, your friend Kris Reef.

In some circles I am known as "Everyone." Everyone loves @Miami Reef . You have a cool avitar too, but that is beside the point.

"The chicks all dig me."

 

[sixty_reefer]

It’s too soon. The tank still looks clean.

I will update once I start seeing new growth on the glass.

If they don’t come back or take longer to come back, don’t look at it as a bad thing, look trough the bright side and evaluate your experiment. If they don’t come back it could mean that you have removed their source of energy from the system meaning that you could have isolated one valid aspect of dinoflagellates causes.
What I’m trying to say is don’t get disappointed if the outcome is not the expected, sometimes we get great knowledge from introducing variables to testing.

 

[sixty_reefer]

In addition please don’t look at any off my comments as criticism, I just see things a little different from most aquarists, especially if we discussing macro nutrients. Nitrogen is such a large group of nutrients and we can only test for nitrates and nitrite. Ammonia is the most abundant nutrient in our systems although we can never determine how much we have as it gets used so fast, so many forms of N are trapped in protein and organic matter (usually ammonia), unfortunately some of us are so fixed on nitrates that in a way stops the conversation/discussion of such a large group of nutrients that can have so many forms that our test kits can’t analyse for so many reasons. For example have you have considered how many nitrogen is being removed via protein skimmer? A protein skimmer that is effective is always removing proteins and bacteria from our systems if we were to analyse the content of it with our normal test kits we would not get a reading or a right interpretation of its contents although we also know that if we were to leave it in the system and be further broken down the nitrates would increase or certain organisms would increase depending on what makes use of them first.

 

[Dan_P]

Am I doing a bad job with this experiment? I feel like I’m disappointing everyone.

Sometimes I assume everyone is thinking negative of me, so I’m going to be blunt and ask for your opinions. I am trying not to introduce too many variables, that’s why I’m “slow” when trying to add your suggestions.

I really am trying my best to not add a lot of variables. I never intentionally dosed N nor P.

I am testing my water as often as you guys want me to.

I hope I’m not disappointing anyone.

You have selected a very complex system to study. For example, my latest experiment studied the variation of the algae that grow on a microscope slide exposed to aquarium water. I exposed 8 microscope slides to aquarium water for twelve hours in the same container. I then placed each slide in a separate container but all containers contained identical medium. 7 of the 8 grew what we would recognize as an algae mess. One of the slides was almost algae free. At the microscopic level, the variability of which microorganisms were dominating the surface presented no clear story.

The point is that studying complex systems with one experiment is not likely to give a simple result. You are going to have to accept this study may give you results that you do not understand and very possibly can never repeat. Very frustrating. The only things you can do are what @taricha suggested. Don’t ask too many questions at once. I have one more.

Stop the experiment, gather what you learned by writing it down and restart it. A key skill in experimenting is knowing when to quit. You might keep the sand and rock, but pitch the water and clean the aquarium. Reassemble, and let it grow out to be a mess. Keep the PO4 and NO3 fairly but not rigorously constant throughout the life of the experiment and then start your vinegar/glucose dosing.

And thanks for sharing your work. I appreciate your generosity with your time and knowledge.

 

[Miami Reef]

but pitch the water and clean the aquarium.

I actually did scrape all the glass. I can do a 100% water change and ensure there are nitrates this time.

 

[Dan_P]

Can I use bleach to sterilize everything, including the sand and rock? I like bleaching stuff ha.

It depends on the purpose of your experiment. I believe that the purpose is to observe changes to an algae community or ecosystem when it is exposed to an increase in dissolved organic carbon, vinegar and glucose. I think at this stage of the investigation, any algae ecosystem will do. The bacteria community is likely going to be crap shoot no matter what you do.

If I’ve stated the purpose correctly, then reuse the sand and rock, rinse in aquarium what if you feel the need to clean , clean the aquarium and equipment surfaces, e.g. tap water and a rag, and reassemble. I would stick to aquarium water as your medium to keep the system resembling your aquarium. Also, fresh salt water can be high in silicate and using 100% fresh salt water would push your developing ecosystem to state that could differ from your aquarium.

Also, maybe you don’t have to let the aquarium become a horrific mess, just let it go to the point stuff is growing, a little messy, and then use dosing to see if you can turn things around.

 

[taricha]

Stop the experiment, gather what you learned by writing it down and restart it. A key skill in experimenting is knowing when to quit.

Yep. This is what Dan would call a "pilot experiment." I do the same thing, I run something once and realize I need method changes and tweaks along the way. Then once I think I know what's going on (that can take a long time, lol), I do it again, clean - same plan start to end.
Understand also that people have a lot of different hypotheses and that shapes how they would do the experiment - it shouldn't necessarily dictate yours, people just have different experimental questions in mind. Also it's easy to be more ambitious with an experiment someone else is running: "more replicates, more measurements, more equipment, larger volume, make it more like an aquarium in X way"

This is a good, focused statement of how to proceed.

I believe that the purpose is to observe changes to an algae community or ecosystem when it is exposed to an increase in dissolved organic carbon, vinegar and glucose. I think at this stage of the investigation, any algae ecosystem will do. The bacteria community is likely going to be crap shoot no matter what you do.

If I’ve stated the purpose correctly, then reuse the sand and rock, rinse in aquarium what if you feel the need to clean , clean the aquarium and equipment surfaces, e.g. tap water and a rag, and reassemble. I would stick to aquarium water as your medium to keep the system resembling your aquarium. Also, fresh salt water can be high in silicate and using 100% fresh salt water would push your developing ecosystem to state that could differ from your aquarium.

Also, maybe you don’t have to let the aquarium become a horrific mess, just let it go to the point stuff is growing, a little messy, and then use dosing to see if you can turn things around.

This will make what you are doing an excellent, detailed observational study.

I'll just throw out one more idea, even though it's likely not possible or @Miami Reef would have done it already.
two tanks.
You'll feel a lot better about any results you get if you have two tanks side by side that you can treat identically in all respects except the carbon dose.
It also allows additional freedom in your plan. Need to Increase or decrease feeding? add a snail? skim? scrape glass? vacuum out accumulated junk? you can do or not do any of those to both tanks and still be confident you have a baseline to observe whether the carbon dosing is significantly changing the shape of the community.

 

[Miami Reef]

@taricha

I think having 2 identical tanks is a good idea. I have almost all that’s needed.

 

[Dan_P]

Yep. This is what Dan would call a "pilot experiment." I do the same thing, I run something once and realize I need method changes and tweaks along the way. Then once I think I know what's going on (that can take a long time, lol), I do it again, clean - same plan start to end.
Understand also that people have a lot of different hypotheses and that shapes how they would do the experiment - it shouldn't necessarily dictate yours, people just have different experimental questions in mind. Also it's easy to be more ambitious with an experiment someone else is running: "more replicates, more measurements, more equipment, larger volume, make it more like an aquarium in X way"

This is a good, focused statement of how to proceed.


This will make what you are doing an excellent, detailed observational study.

I'll just throw out one more idea, even though it's likely not possible or @Miami Reef would have done it already.
two tanks.
You'll feel a lot better about any results you get if you have two tanks side by side that you can treat identically in all respects except the carbon dose.
It also allows additional freedom in your plan. Need to Increase or decrease feeding? add a snail? skim? scrape glass? vacuum out accumulated junk? you can do or not do any of those to both tanks and still be confident you have a baseline to observe whether the carbon dosing is significantly changing the shape of the community.

Three tanks will make you very, very happy