Algae release "useful proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites."

Discussion in 'Triton Applied Reef Bioscience' started by Randy Holmes-Farley, Feb 13, 2018.

  1. Stigigemla

    Stigigemla Active Member

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    There is a scale of words we are using and we are individuals that uncode them differently. Just to take a few.
    Imagination - maybe - could be - possible - likely - credible - proof - evidence.
    Other people have other words and even place them differently. When i try things i sometimes start at imagination. And sometimes i try to find evidence first...
    When i recommend things i like it to be from credible to evidence.
    Sometimes when reefers have problems i say that they can use "possible" but after discussing it they almost never do.
    Here i see a variation between credible and evidence as needed in the discussion.
    Its annoying to see someone calling credible things prooved while others dont use credible as they are trained to only use evidenced facts.

    Anyway it has been good to read Jose Mayos posts. They have partly taken me back to 2004 when i tried to read all about coral reefs, their biology and chemistry.
    Apparently we in the reefing scene have been moving a bit away from the wild reef research to a reefing accepted "knowledge"
    That is of course not bad but we should be aware of it. Our reefs at home are only partly "wild".
     
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  2. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    I'm not sure what you mean by "prove "inorganic uptake in an aquarium, and I didn't realize anyone doubted this to be happening.

    It is well studied in the ocean and clearly happens to a substantial extent (see link below).

    It is also easily demonstrated that dosing of organics without N and P in them can spur bacterial growth in an aquarium (e.g., dose too much and get visible bacteria on rocks and such, or cloudiness in the water; I have done this myself). Those bacteria must get N and P from somewhere. We can debate where, perhaps, but regardless, they are taking up N and P that other organisms cannot then use, unless they can consume the bacteria themselves.

    It is well reported by many reefers that inorganic nutrients, especially nitrate, decline when dosing organic carbon. IMO, there's actually more concern about driving nitrate too low than not being able to lower it in this fashion. Whether this happens by taking up organic N, ammonia, or nitrate really doesn't matter: the result is lower nitrate, and if nitrate is too low, that can clearly be undesirable in many reef aquaria.

    Link about the process in the ocean:

    The uptake of inorganic nutrients by heterotrophic bacteria
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00166816

    "It is now well known that heterotrophic bacteria account for a large portion of total uptake of both phosphate (60% median) and ammonium (30% median) in freshwaters and marine environments. "
     
  3. Vaughn17

    Vaughn17 Well-Known Member

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    I bet everyone aspires to be as smart as you are, SS.
     
  4. Scrubber_steve

    Scrubber_steve Well-Known Member

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    No, most people are smarter.
    But I can understand your anxiety, v17
     
  5. acesq

    acesq Active Member

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    Of all the claims made by all the reef supplement companies out there, this one is about as tame as they come. So tame and meaningless that IMO, the prodigious brain power and education on display in this thread is utterly wasted on this debate.

    "Useful" That's what were talking about? "Useful"? We're talking about "useful"? (See, Allen Iverson on "Practice"
    )
     
  6. Scrubber_steve

    Scrubber_steve Well-Known Member

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    at lesast that dude fronted up to answer the question (several times) :D
     
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  7. Jomama

    Jomama Marine fish monthly R2R Supporter

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    Randy and folks. I've grown Chaetomorpha, 90 gallon refugium outside, for a 30 gallon DT, I cycled the tank on 10/20/17, at present, there is 9 Dendronephthya, bought on 1/15/18, 7 Umbellulifera, sizes are 1/2" to 6". All bought on 1/15/18. Early morning & late evening, remove 1 cup Chaetomorpha, put in small blender. Blend, when done, strain, add 4 gallons DT water. Dose thru day apprx. 20 ml, every 4 minutes, one Dendronephthya when bought looked good for dead, now since 2/23, was 1" now up to 2+ inches with poly growth. What proof do I have. See picture, will soon put picture of Dendronephthya that came back to life. The others doing great. The macroalgea is helping them live. Sorry about the flash.

    Screenshot_2018-03-01-21-08-36-1.png
     
  8. Jomama

    Jomama Marine fish monthly R2R Supporter

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    One more thing, nitrates 5-10ppm, phosphates 0 to .03. How's this possible. No water changes, 3 sulfur denitrators, each for 100-150 gallon tank.
     
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  9. Lasse

    Lasse Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader R2R Excellence Award Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    Genius - a new useful way of using macro algae. Greate "out of the box" thinking

    Interesting question - can´t you make a new thread about this - and we´ll try to figure it out there

    Sincerely Lasse
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  10. Lasse

    Lasse Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Squad Leader R2R Excellence Award Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    Please - See the scientific definition of heterotroph

    You refer to scientific articles handling free swimming, open water planktonic heterotroph bacteria that´s not are attached to particular organic matter - there is not any evidence of these highly specialized planktonic bacteria exist in our aquaria or that this unique capacity (for heterotroph organisms) exist among the normal benthic heterotroph bacteria of our aquarias. It could be or it could not be - but there is no investigation - as I know - that prove this. However there is tons of evidences and scientific articles that show that these benthic bacteria gets their N and P from the decomposition of organic matter - the real meaning of the word heterotroph. Its also shown in tons of studies that raising DOC concentration in the water will promote the growth of these benthic heterotroph bacteria and speed up the decomposition of organic matter. This is exactly that you see (after an overdose) than you refer to visible bacteria on rocks and such. The cloudiness (serve overdosing) in the water reflect (IMO) these bacteria growth on free particular organic matter in the water column or bacteria mats that have been ripped of from rocks and such


    The N and P bound organically in the organic matter is already out of reach for autotroph organisms as algae and plants. In fact - the decomposition of organic matter will release som of the P and N in inorganic form that algae (including zoox) can use

    According to nitrate - there is - at least - two other pathways for a decline of NO3 in the water column than directly uptake of NO3 by heterotrophic bacteria when adding DOC - including denitrification and Dissimilatory nitrate reduction to ammonium (DNRA).

    Its also not the completer truth that too low NO3 can be undesirable - but to low inorganic N can be that. This include NH3/NH4.

    However - We use (and I have promote this for nearly 10 years in Sweden - and been mocked for it the first 5 years at least) NO3 additives but the reason for this (at least in my case) is that NO3 its easier and more safe to dose (and probably easier to measure - but still tricky) compared with NH3/NH4 and through keep up a level of 2-5 ppm NO3 in the water column I can ensure enough of inorganic N for zoox and algae (IMO rather important if you run a fuge with macro algae) A low value of NO3 in the water column will also prevent forming of hydrogen sulphide in filters and DSB for a while during power breakdown

    The use of DOC additives promote a faster circulation of nutrients and other beneficial substances through speeding up the decomposition of organic matter by benthic heterotroph bacteria (and following by the sponge cycle and other important loops in an ecosystem) In this way - the release of carbohydrates from macro algae is useful in a system like the Triton method (and in my version of it). And Tritons statement is taken from their manual and IMO - it does not automatically means all aquarium - IMO it means in their method - and that is a holistic method and incorporate many different parameters like use of active carbon

    I prefer to use the natural existing DOC (carbohydrates from macro algae and corals) compared with the more "chemical and man made" DOC like vodka and vinegar. Yes - I know that you can promote natural made alcohols in a reef system - I try to do that by myself - but in this context I mean additives from a bottle put in by the aquarist.

    You - in person - have done a huge information and education job according to chemical/biological processes in our aquariums and aquarium husbandry - I respect you for that - very much.

    I´m not an expert of anything but know a little about many things especially in biological and ecological processes and i try to communicate this in an understandable way (even for not academic educated persons) using a language that´s not mine native language. Biological and especially ecological processes seldom will be expressed in a mathematical form, - you need to use the knowledge you are adware of and put it in new context. Not always you have all keys in order to understand the process but a discussion like this can develop the understandings both for me, you and others. But this demand that all person respect each other and handle their arguments the way that they demand that other persons shall handle their own argument - In a more understandable way - treat other person the way that you want to be treated yourself. Post like 64 and 116 maybe is funny and give some points from the jury but IMO - its disrespectful to serious persons that do not have the same standpoint as you.

    Personally - I have say everything I want to say - there will be no new arguments - so - for now I leave this thread. All are welcome to my build thread where most of my philosophy of keeping reef aquarium comes forth

    Sincerely Lasse
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  11. Jose Mayo

    Jose Mayo Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    Congrats, @Jomama, well thought out!

    It is known that carnation corals feed, in nature, mainly of phytoplankton, which makes it think that it is obvious that one can also feed them with "algae juice". But thinking the obvious is not always very easy and, in the case, it brings other challenges, for example, if it could be possible to use this "useful" form of feeding with "macroalgae juice" varied (Lobophora, Caulerpa, Ulva etc ...) , for the carnation corals, in an aquarium in which these species are mixed with stony corals varied.

    If you do, let us know.

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  12. Jose Mayo

    Jose Mayo Well-Known Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    I do not have all the answers, so I look for them ... I also know that, as far as I know, there are, in fact, no scientifically rigorous research on the various relationships and interactions of beings living together, forced, in our boxes of glass. We can, if we like, say that an aquarium is an "ecological niche", language allows this, but in reality an aquarium is so artificial and unnatural, from luminaires to sump, that to use the term "ecology" in relation to this does not sound "full" as it should be.

    That said, what we have are the evidences of what is studied in the natural environment and the empirical observations of the companions of aquarismo, these second ones many times more useful than the first ones and worthy of all the appreciation, although they do not always have the notion how the whole process is developed to achieve the desired result. In the context of the hobby, perhaps, the greatest usefulness of such scholarly studies is to bring knowledge of how things "might happen" if circumstances so permit, and how small details can sometimes cause that an action to a " x ", expected, bring into reality a" y "result.

    In fact, biology is not mathematics, and for each of its destinies there are several paths; Most aquarists, in the past and still today, have always worked with limiting factors (nutrients, for example) to direct their aquarium events to a desired outcome. It seems that there are "winds of change" in the hobby and today, some are already trying to develop, within their own limitations and circumstances, a more holistic way of thinking ... that these new thoughts be welcome!

    Regards
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  13. Jomama

    Jomama Marine fish monthly R2R Supporter

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    Thanks for the info.
     
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  14. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    That's a very interesting result, and perhaps helpful to others keeping such corals, but I'm not sure it says all that much about what happens when you grow macroalgae, but are not blending it up and refeeding it. There's seemingly a big difference between natural exudates from live macroalgae and blending up whole macroalgae and feeding it.

    If I am understanding correctly, the benefit wasn't happening (at least to the same extent) before you starting the blending process, right? It would be a more impressive experiment to show that simply growing macroalgae in your refugium allowed these corals to thrive when they do not otherwise. ;)

    FWIW, I took macroalgae from my refugium and fed my fish in my display tank. Obviously, that was beneficial. But it doesn't really say anything about the benefit of possible organic molecules released into solution from macroalgae growing in my refugium.
     
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  15. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    How is it possible? Why would it not be possible? I don't understand. :)
     
  16. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    I don't really understand why you are getting hung up on definitions and processes. Unless you doubt that adding organic carbon such as glucose can result in lower nitrate by any process (let's just go with the two you mention above, for example), then it is obviously possible for the glucose that you claim is released from macroalgae to possibly be reducing nutrients (nitrate) lower than an aquarist may prefer.

    It's a very simply concept that doesn't rely on any knowledge of the specific process(s) that make it happen.
     
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  17. Jomama

    Jomama Marine fish monthly R2R Supporter

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    True, everything has been done under the sun to keep and make these types of corals thrive in captivity. Since 1983 I've tried everything to help them live, no avail, today we have more information. What I did to feed them was last resort. Pictures don't lie. I blended algea to release nutrients back into aquarium and hoped for the better. Thanks for reply
     
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  18. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    I'm glad to hear that was helpful. :)
     
  19. Scrubber_steve

    Scrubber_steve Well-Known Member

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    Hi Jomama; I'm curious on a few of the specifics of your blending method.
    If I may ask; when you blend the chaeto, what liquid do you blend it in? - tap water or tank water, or other?
    You say you strain after blending. What is the purpose of this?
    How long does the proceedure take from blending to putting the mash in the 4 gallons of DT water?
     
  20. Jomama

    Jomama Marine fish monthly R2R Supporter

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    I add algae water I grow or tank water to level on blender. I strain small pieces of macroalgae, dosing unit cannot work, if small pieces not removed.
     
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