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Algae release "useful proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites."

ksed

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Jose Mayo

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@Randy Holmes-Farley , @Jose Mayo
It says the carbon produced by the algae could cause issues. Wouldn’t carbon dosing cause a similar problem?
So far we have only thought that carbon dosage would only cause bacteria to multiply, and by their multiplication and consequent consumption of nutrients, especially nitrate, would help us to export these nutrients from the aquarium with the help of the skimmer ... in fact seemed to be a good idea (and within certain limits it certainly is), but more recent evidence seems to associate an implicit risk to this practice, which would be the conversion of commensal bacteria, present in coral holobionts, into pathogenic bacteria.

Regards
 

ksed

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I suppose that following the redfield ratio in terms of carbon is a safe bet?
And could different carbon sources have different effects on corals.
So far we have only thought that carbon dosage would only cause bacteria to multiply, and by their multiplication and consequent consumption of nutrients, especially nitrate, would help us to export these nutrients from the aquarium with the help of the skimmer ... in fact seemed to be a good idea (and within certain limits it certainly is), but more recent evidence seems to associate an implicit risk to this practice, which would be the conversion of commensal bacteria, present in coral holobionts, into pathogenic bacteria.

Regards
 

Jose Mayo

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I suppose that following the redfield ratio in terms of carbon is a safe bet?
And could different carbon sources have different effects on corals.
No, it's not. "Redfield ratio" only tells us the proportion of carbon, nitrate and phosphate in the homogenized bodies of plankton, but it has no relation to the concentrations of these same nutrients in the environment in which this plankton was generated. The focus on this ratio is just an ancient myth of aquarism, which is occasionally unearthed.

Once there are measurable nutrients in any proportion, what may limit the growth of this or that organism that may use them is the depletion of other micronutrients, consumed in the same growth process, that can not be measured, such as trace elements.

And, yes, different carbon sources are likely to have different effects on the coral ecosystem, especially on bacterioplankton.

Regards
 

Stigigemla

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Looking at DOC. Do we know anything about the dissolved carbon in free oceanic water or at the coral reefs.
Triton is now coming with a test for DOC but is there information about the natural levels?
 

Sallstrom

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Looking at DOC. Do we know anything about the dissolved carbon in free oceanic water or at the coral reefs.
Triton is now coming with a test for DOC but is there information about the natural levels?
Yes, I've found a lot of papers on DOC. And how high DOC can make the bacteria on the corals to "bloom" and have a negative impact on the coral.

I'm not on my computer now, I'll check later if I can find some articles and share them.

/ David
 

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Stigigemla

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Now that i see them i recognize that i have read them.
What hit me then was that dissolved organic carbon seems to be very stable in a reef tank that is managed as the most of them.
What hits me now is that dosing organic carbon is like a dance on a loose line. (I hope that expression exists in english too)
 

Gareth elliott

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Perhaps a poll on carbon dosing vs. no carbon dosing and coral health. Perhaps by presence of STN or RTN?
Having read the papers provided, they dont really provide an insight into real world aquarium reef only study findings, that by their nature attempt to remove as many variables as possible. Studies do not always equate a 1:1 realization in ecology. Ie super saccharin doses cause cancer in rats but not humans. It does make sense there is a negative when DOC reaches a certain level. Though a hobbyist has no way to verify the level, at least there is no test i am aware of aimed at that market.

But reading through vibrant threads you do see some negative effects when dosed heavily. Even bacteria supplements themselves state dosing instructions, That err on the side of caution.

Are there any studies equating TDS measurements to amount of DOC? If so perhaps a simple TDS meter could help an aquarist find their tank’s “sweet spot”?
 

Sallstrom

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Perhaps a poll on carbon dosing vs. no carbon dosing and coral health. Perhaps by presence of STN or RTN?
Having read the papers provided, they dont really provide an insight into real world aquarium reef only study findings, that by their nature attempt to remove as many variables as possible. Studies do not always equate a 1:1 realization in ecology. Ie super saccharin doses cause cancer in rats but not humans. It does make sense there is a negative when DOC reaches a certain level. Though a hobbyist has no way to verify the level, at least there is no test i am aware of aimed at that market.

But reading through vibrant threads you do see some negative effects when dosed heavily. Even bacteria supplements themselves state dosing instructions, That err on the side of caution.

Are there any studies equating TDS measurements to amount of DOC? If so perhaps a simple TDS meter could help an aquarist find their tank’s “sweet spot”?
Triton lab's big thing this years on Interzoo was a test for DOC. I haven't seen any starting date yet, but it will be really interesting to test. We run about 10 different aquaria systems at work, so it will be fun to see the variation.

I noticed Brown Jelly Disease comes more often in one of our systems, specially after I've vacuumed the sand. In this system we dose a lot of ethanol(high bioload). I can't not say there is a connection, but I get the feeling that it might be the case. Anyway a DOC tests maybe could tell at least if it was high or low, and it would be possible to adjust dosings and see if there were any differences.

/ David
 

reeferfoxx

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No, it's not. "Redfield ratio" only tells us the proportion of carbon, nitrate and phosphate in the homogenized bodies of plankton, but it has no relation to the concentrations of these same nutrients in the environment in which this plankton was generated. The focus on this ratio is just an ancient myth of aquarism, which is occasionally unearthed.

Once there are measurable nutrients in any proportion, what may limit the growth of this or that organism that may use them is the depletion of other micronutrients, consumed in the same growth process, that can not be measured, such as trace elements.

And, yes, different carbon sources are likely to have different effects on the coral ecosystem, especially on bacterioplankton.

Regards
I cannot express to you how misunderstood this concept is. The ratio is spreading like wildfire in knee jerking ways. From youtubers adding it to their videos and now BRS promoting it.
 

ksed

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Triton lab's big thing this years on Interzoo was a test for DOC. I haven't seen any starting date yet, but it will be really interesting to test. We run about 10 different aquaria systems at work, so it will be fun to see the variation.

I noticed Brown Jelly Disease comes more often in one of our systems, specially after I've vacuumed the sand. In this system we dose a lot of ethanol(high bioload). I can't not say there is a connection, but I get the feeling that it might be the case. Anyway a DOC tests maybe could tell at least if it was high or low, and it would be possible to adjust dosings and see if there were any differences.

/ David
Instead of dosing ethanol, use a large algae refugium, if you have the room. Or do you feel it’s not as efficient?
 

Turbo's Aquatics

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No, it's not. "Redfield ratio" only tells us the proportion of carbon, nitrate and phosphate in the homogenized bodies of plankton, but it has no relation to the concentrations of these same nutrients in the environment in which this plankton was generated. The focus on this ratio is just an ancient myth of aquarism, which is occasionally unearthed.

Once there are measurable nutrients in any proportion, what may limit the growth of this or that organism that may use them is the depletion of other micronutrients, consumed in the same growth process, that can not be measured, such as trace elements.
This is one of the better explanations I've heard on this. I never felt the RR was something that was "across the board" because it is a result of an experiment in controlled laboratory conditions. Everyone's tank is different, and the dynamics of a closed reef system are not comparable to lab conditions.
I cannot express to you how misunderstood this concept is. The ratio is spreading like wildfire in knee jerking ways. From youtubers adding it to their videos and now BRS promoting it.
I wholeheartedly agree!
 

Sallstrom

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Instead of dosing ethanol, use a large algae refugium, if you have the room. Or do you feel it’s not as efficient?
A refugium would be great for this system! But I haven't figured out how to get it in there. Lack of room :) But I have some ideas!

/ David
 

Gareth elliott

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The ratio just seems like asking for trouble once you start going above 1ppm or so nitrate.
Without an Na+/K+-ATPase like enzyme i dont see how a ratio would be useful for any organism let alone corals.
 

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