Algae release "useful proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites."

[Lasse]

Yes but I use an oxidator - do not know if it will affect DOC. However, I have sent in a N/DOC test to Triton. Let see what it will say.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Yes but I use an oxidator - do not know if it will affect DOC. However, I have sent in a N/DOC test to Triton. Let see what it will say.

Sincerely Lasse

what effect are you expecting from an oxidator in regards to DOC?

 

[Lasse]

Maybe it can oxidize some - I really do not know. I use it in order to take away yellowing substances. They are a type of DOC IMO. And it works that way.

All of this is rather interesting and I think that in a couple of years - we will have a better knowledge of the matter. The new Triton N/DOC test will (when there is enough of data from different aquaria and samples) give us a hint of which levels, during different conditions, will be good and which levels will promote some problems.

For the moment - I do not inject my skimmate below the DSB - I release it out in the return chamber. If I get to much particle in the water - I close the skimmer drain and collect skimmate some days. Last time I harvest my Chaeto - I discover one thing below the chaeto mat - it was part of the upper layer of the DSB that show signs of being anaerobic. At that time (the aerobic part was at least 2 cm down in the gravel) I thought that this aerobic part was created by adding DOC to the plenum. I quit the DOC addition and rise the reverse flow through the sand bed. However - the linked video can give some other explanation to the anaerobic zone. I will run the curent setup for a while and see what´s happen with higher reversed flow through the DSB. My ORP was -50 mV below the plenum - now is the goal 200 mV.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Scrubber_steve]

The results of your test will be interesting for you but inconsequential for me I think as I run my system very differently to yours Lasse

 

[Lasse]

I do not think one test will say anything but if many people does the test (and maybe test for some years) you probably can see a pattern. Not in the way - that reading - do that but a pattern that help you understand whats happening. But I think that every test must be in the context of just that aquaria.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I do not think one test will say anything but if many people does the test (and maybe test for some years) you probably can see a pattern. Not in the way - that reading - do that but a pattern that help you understand whats happening. But I think that every test must be in the context of just that aquaria.

Sincerely Lasse

Sorry Lasse for being some what naive, & confused, but what specific question are you asking with these tests in regards to the subject?

 

[Lasse]

I will see how much free DOC I have and also the rate between N, P, and C. In time - I hope be able to link the rations to different events in the aquaria.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I will see how much free DOC I have and also the rate between N, P, and C. In time - I hope be able to link the rations to different events in the aquaria.

Sincerely Lasse

This is a good question.
In regards to - coral / algae phase changes on natural coral reefs affected by externally forced imbalances, a coral reef aquarium utilising algae filtration does not have to deal with -
1. overshadowing of coral by algae

2. abrasion caused by physical contact by algae.

3. anoxification within the coral holobiont due to the immigration of excessive bacteria species again as a result of exuded photosynthate from immediately located alga.

? This leaves the question of DOC release by various algae & its chemical make up from remote locations, ie fuges/ scrubbers. Your observations, & observations from many others show no negative responses, to positive responses.

The question I would ask is; how much non specific hydrated DOC is necessary for a healthy aquarium? Is the answer akin to no3 / po4 levels? Some Goldie Locks number? - not too much but not too little?
Are problem coral reef aquariums the result of too little or too much DOC ?

 

[RevMH]

That is not what I asked and not what they claimed.

Maybe it is a translation issue, but there's a big difference (IMO) between thinking something potentially useful is released to saying that the overall effect is "useful".

To meet the criteria of their claim and the basis of my question, the amount released needs to be sufficient to have a perceived benefit to to tank, and it must not have detrimental effects that could possibly override the benefits.

Without an actual experiment of some sort, I do not know how one can make that claim.

Let me give a different example:

Human saliva contains many of the things that are ascribed to release from algae, at least in its major classes, and even more good stuff: proteins, carbohydrates, glucose calcium, magnesium, potassium, bicarbonate, nitrogen sources such as ammonia and urea.

All of those individually might be described as useful in reef tanks in various scenarios.

Is spitting into the tank useful? Why is this not generally recommended for every reef tank?

Might spitting into the tank be more "useful" than the organics released from macroalgae? lol


Maybe this is the better way to rephrase my original question to put some quantitation on it:

Is there any evidence that the release of "proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites" by algae in a refugium is more useful than spitting into the tank once a day?

I know this is old, but Dr. Holmes-Farley, you just made my day.


"Is there any evidence that the release of "proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites" by algae in a refugium is more useful than spitting into the tank once a day? "

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I know this is old, but Dr. Holmes-Farley, you just made my day.


"Is there any evidence that the release of "proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites" by algae in a refugium is more useful than spitting into the tank once a day? "

Your asking, did the chicken come first or the egg. So, answer is, some see glass half full, others half empty. Depends on each other's resaults. I spit in my tank not always, it's closer than bathroom. Maybe why baby dendronephthya growing almost everywhere....Hahaha

 

[Julian@Triton]

The TRITON Method is based upon Ehsan running his aquarium in Dusseldorf with incredible success for over a decade, without the need for water change, using TRITON quality assured products and regular TRITON ICP-OES lab testing. The refugium was and is still considered the key component of filtration for the TRITON method.

If spitting in your tank gives you similar results then who are we to argue

 

[Scrubber_steve]

The TRITON Method is based upon Ehsan running his aquarium in Dusseldorf with incredible success for over a decade, without the need for water change, using TRITON quality assured products and regular TRITON ICP-OES lab testing. The refugium was and is still considered the key component of filtration for the TRITON method.

If spitting in your tank gives you similar results then who are we to argue

Well Juilian, this IS THE FIRST RESPONSE IN THIS THREAD BY SOMEONE FROM TRITON.
Perhaps now you could respond directly to the question in the title of this thread that @Randy Holmes-Farley asked ?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Just wondering if this answers the initial question made by the op.

Marine Functional Metabolites - Coastal Wiki

www.coastalwiki.org

Functional metabolites and macroalgal-herbivore interactions - Coastal Wiki

www.coastalwiki.org

Polyunsaturated Fatty acids of marine macroalgae: potential for nutritional and pharmaceutical applications - PubMed

As mammals are unable to synthesize essential polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA), these compounds need to be taken in through diet. Nowadays, obtaining essential PUFA in diet is becoming increasingly difficult; therefore this work investigated the suitability of using macroalgae as novel dietary...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[AquaBiomics]

Apologies if this has been brought up somewhere in the 17 pages that I havent caught up on yet. [edit - on further reading I see that of course it has!]

But DOC in the ocean is hugely complex and poorly characterized (i.e. its a mixture of many, many different substances). And its been pretty clearly established that the kind of DOC available drives the kinds of microbes (Bacteria & Archaea) that grow.

So organic nutrients released by algae *could be* beneficial by promoting the growth of beneficial microbes. Or the same nutrients could be detrimental to the health of our animals, by promoting growth of detrimental microbes.

IMO there is a very good plausible mechanism for DOC affecting the health of our aquariums but as far as I am aware, nowhere near enough data to say which kinds of DOC or what levels are beneficial yet. That said, the more people that make these measurements the more we stand to learn.

Now to catch up on the rest of this thread!

 

[RevMH]

The TRITON Method is based upon Ehsan running his aquarium in Dusseldorf with incredible success for over a decade, without the need for water change, using TRITON quality assured products and regular TRITON ICP-OES lab testing. The refugium was and is still considered the key component of filtration for the TRITON method.

If spitting in your tank gives you similar results then who are we to argue

Thank you for the reply back. I, too, would like to hear what you (as a representative of Triton) have to say regarding the initial question posed by @Randy Holmes-Farley nearly 2 years back.

I wonder if I could bottle my spit and make a killing... hmm.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Thank you for the reply back. I, too, would like to hear what you (as a representative of Triton) have to say regarding the initial question posed by @Randy Holmes-Farley nearly 2 years back.

I wonder if I could bottle my spit and make a killing... hmm.

doubt you’ll get an answer with that attitude, Is the last paragraph really necessary? You are addressing a Respectful sponsor at the end of the day.

 

[RevMH]

doubt you’ll get an answer with that attitude, Is the last paragraph really necessary? You are addressing a Respectful sponsor at the end of the day.

I hadn't realized what I said was disrespectful or rude... Certainly not my intent.

Unless you're referring to the spit comment, which was poking fun at the comment @Julian@Triton had made to me "If spitting in your tank gives you similar results then who are we to argue "

If you assume (dangerous) that I meant the Triton product is "spit", I did not. In fact, I am a Triton user - which is what brought me to this sting of postings in the first place. Not every post made online is an attack. I appreciate all the knowledge that went into the last 17 pages of discussion.

Happy reefing! I hope I didn't offend anyone with (what I thought) my "playful" comment.

 

[Julian@Triton]

That is from your Triton method description:

https://www.triton.de/en/products-services/triton-method/

"A healthy algae refuge will consume animal waste by-products and some metals while exporting useful proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites."

What is the basis for saying these these released chemicals are useful? Is there any supporting evidence?

I have spoken with Ehsan about this and he believes that something needs to be clarified here.

Firstly, the discussion this has generated is very interesting and informative. We understand, as a chemist hearing or reading the statement above, you would have a different perspective on the meaning. From a biologist viewpoint the algae is both a life form, and in the TRITON Method, also acting as a habitat and food source for the range of micro organisms that dwell in the refugium. That being understood it is a very natural process that all of the life forms in the refugium (algae included) will create proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites (which from here on I will refer to as PCM) as a by product and are in themselves packages of all of these components. The beauty of these living packages of PCM is that they remain a stable source of PCM over time, while they remain alive, and support the system with a permanently higher level of available PCM . Obviously this is not a TRITON innovation but just an attempt to replicate the processes that occur in nature.

"A healthy algae refuge will consume animal waste by-products and some metals while exporting useful proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites."

To shine a bit of light on the key point that may have been misunderstood in the initial statement above (probably our fault for not making it clearer) is that the algae "refuge" produces and enriches the surrounding water with PCM and it is not only the "algae" in the refuge that is responsible for this.

In TRITON's reef aquarium based experiments over the past decade it is very visible that export and import mechanisms of the algae refuge, especially when supported by the right supplementation program designed for an algae refuge, is both beneficial and "useful" for a closed system reef aquarium. It is easier, more stable and more natural than any alternative (eg. additions of coral foods, amino acids and other supplements).

For sure the algae can also create toxic metabolites, which is the potential down side of an algae refuge, but our database shows that there is a much higher risk to an aquarium created through contamination by organic and inorganic supplements that people are willing to add to their aquarium to achieve similar results. Also the quality and availability of these supplements are usually lower and more irregular than that provided by an algae refuge. As this thread is focused on the release from the algae refuge we will not even go into the variety of filtration benefits.

Finally, to the question of evidence for our claim we would say yes, there is plenty. If you need it in the form of a scientific write up identifying one particular protein or carbohydrate or metabolite there possibly are but we do not base our claim on these kinds of papers. I believe that @Lasse has posted some papers to this end earlier in this thread.

We know that these biological pathways are extremely complex and poorly understood which led us to be the first and only company in this industry to initiate research into the area of organic carbon and Nitrogen. Through the introduction of N-DOC lab testing we started to investigate the affects of Total Organic Carbon (TOC), Total Inorganic Carbon (TIC) and Total Nitrogen bound (TNB) in the reef aquarium over two years ago. This is already the largest existing database worldwide delivering valuable information.

 

[RevMH]

I have spoken with Ehsan about this and he believes that something needs to be clarified here.

Firstly, the discussion this has generated is very interesting and informative. We understand, as a chemist hearing or reading the statement above, you would have a different perspective on the meaning. From a biologist viewpoint the algae is both a life form, and in the TRITON Method, also acting as a habitat and food source for the range of micro organisms that dwell in the refugium. That being understood it is a very natural process that all of the life forms in the refugium (algae included) will create proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites (which from here on I will refer to as PCM) as a by product and are in themselves packages of all of these components. The beauty of these living packages of PCM is that they remain more stable over time, while they are alive, and support the system with a permanently higher level of available PCM . Obviously this is not a TRITON innovation but just an attempt to replicate the processes that occur in nature.



To shine a bit of light on the key point that may have been misunderstood in the initial statement above (probably our fault for not making it clearer) is that the algae "refuge" produces and enriches the surrounding water with PCM and it is not only the "algae" in the refuge that is responsible for this.

In TRITON's reef aquarium based experiments over the past decade it is very visible that export and import mechanisms of the algae refuge, especially when supported by the right supplementation program designed for an algae refuge, is both beneficial and "useful" for a closed system reef aquarium. It is easier, more stable and more natural than any alternative (eg. additions of coral foods, amino acids and other supplements).

For sure the algae can also create toxic metabolites, which is the potential down side of an algae refuge, but our database shows that there is a much higher risk to an aquarium created through contamination by organic and inorganic supplements that people are willing to add to their aquarium to achieve similar results. Also the quality and availability of these supplements are usually lower and more irregular than that provided by an algae refuge. As this thread is focused on the release from the algae refuge we will not even go into the variety of filtration benefits.

Finally, to the question of evidence for our claim we would say yes, there is plenty. If you need it in the form of a scientific write up identifying one particular protein or carbohydrate or metabolite there possibly are but we do not base our claim on these kinds of papers. I believe that Lasse has posted some papers to this end earlier in this thread.

We know that these biological pathways are extremely complex and poorly understood which led us to be the first and only company in this industry to initiate research into the area of organic carbon and Nitrogen. Through the introduction of N-DOC lab testing we started to investigate the affects of Total Organic Carbon (TOC), Total Inorganic Carbon (TIC) and Total Nitrogen bound (TNB) in the reef aquarium over two years ago. This is already the largest existing database worldwide delivering valuable information.

Thank you for the insight and reply. I appreciate when you (Triton) respond back to the user-base.

I am curious what response can be gathered from smarter reefers (there's so many on R2R ) like @Randy Holmes-Farley.

Thank you, Julian.

 

[Mortie31]

Thank you for the insight and reply. I appreciate when you (Triton) responds back to the user-base.

I am curious what response can be gathered from smarter reefers (there's so many on R2R ) like @Randy Holmes-Farley.

Thank you, Julian.

But he hasn’t clarified anything... for instance @Julian@Triton hasn’t mentioned anything about heavy metal absorption, the explanation of ”PCM” is very wishy washy, seeing as he got a plug in for N-DOC, what levels are PCM are desirable? Whats to much? How does it measure in N-DOC? What can we see in NDOC results that would indicate a healthy level of PCM... triton only ever use anecdotal evidence form ”there extensive research” without publishing it or even allowing it to be scrutinised... they could be making everything up for all we know... again I’ll ask you to publish your testing findings, you will get a lot more respect...