ALK over 16! Best way to lower it please!

[Todd Kellley]

The air gap is not an issue

Seems to be if I am reading from where the fluid is and not where the plunger is.

 

[Todd Kellley]

First - does everything in your tank look good - of so take a deep breath and dont do anything 'drastic.
Second are you doing the test properly - as others have suggested?
Third - to answer your question - if you're not doing something - and you're mixing your salt correctly - Time - alkalinity will lower with time

I also mix my salt days before I do a water change to make sure it is all dissolved and diluted so it does not do so and spike in the tank.

 

[TheGulag]

It does or how else would I come with 16, not a dumb question just an incorrect answer

Do you have the regular Alk test kit that comes with NH3, NO2, PH, and NO3 or the Alk Pro kit that comes with Ca and Mg?

If you have the regular Alk test kit did you put 5ml of tank water in or 10ml of tank water in?

 

[MnFish1]

So - maybe a learning thing - if your tank looks good and you get a 'test' that looks 'bad' - pay attention to the tank - and see what might be wrong with the test - as a couple of suggestions

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Seachem Prime and phosphate reducer due to high phosphates in my city water. Then I put it in a 50 gallon drum to mix with salt with 2 powerheads. That way I always had premixed water on hand. Now I keep the drum full of RODI water and stopped using the phosphate remover as well. I never had an issue doing this with fish only tanks, done it for over 20 yrs but also never had real sensitive creatures I guess.

Tap water often contains alkalinity. That may be the source.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Seems to be if I am reading from where the fluid is and not where the plunger is.

What was meant was that one needs to ignore the presence or absence of an air gap and only follow the plunger. Obviously it is an issue if you do it incorrectly.

 

[Todd Kellley]

Do you have the regular Alk test kit that comes with NH3, NO2, PH, and NO3 or the Alk Pro kit that comes with Ca and Mg?

If you have the regular Alk test kit did you put 5ml of tank water in or 10ml of tank water in?

It is a stand alone Alk test. I have sailfert for everything else but the LFS recommended redsea for alk. Problem is my instructions look nothing like that. No colored pictures, just black and white instructions and no 5 or 10 ml. Says to use 4 or 2 to stretch the amount of tests I can do. Box looked like it had been open before so the employee at the LFS opened it to make sure everything was in there and said it was. Hindsight I should have just had the grab another box but really makes me think I have the wrong instructions! Once I started looking for the chart it came with online that showed results over 16 I realized nothing looked the same. Guess tomorrow I go get a sailfert kit for alk as well.

 

[Todd Kellley]

Tap water often contains alkalinity. That may be the source.

It has been over 3 months with only RODI water, doing 2 5% changes a week to try and swap the tap water out without too much stress or parameter changes. Do you think the tap water raised it so high it is just going to take more to bring it down?

 

[TheGulag]

It is a stand alone Alk test. I have sailfert for everything else but the LFS recommended redsea for alk. Problem is my instructions look nothing like that. No colored pictures, just black and white instructions and no 5 or 10 ml. Says to use 4 or 2 to stretch the amount of tests I can do. Box looked like it had been open before so the employee at the LFS opened it to make sure everything was in there and said it was. Hindsight I should have just had the grab another box but really makes me think I have the wrong instructions! Once I started looking for the chart it came with online that showed results over 16 I realized nothing looked the same. Guess tomorrow I go get a sailfert kit for alk as well.

Can you post a picture of the kit I'm curious to see what it looks like.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

To be a little more clear about the "air gap" description: When the syringe plunger is at the bottom of the syringe housing, there is air in the plunger tip. However, when you draw a syringe from "0 mL" at the bottom to "1mL", you are still drawing precisely 1 mL of fluid into the syringe (presuming the tip is under the liquid during the draw). There will still be an air gap under the plunger of the syringe barrel, but because the plunger traveled exactly "1mL", this doesn't matter. So you read where the plunger ends up at the end of the titration, regardless of how much air is between it and the liquid in the syringe.

 

[Todd Kellley]

So - maybe a learning thing - if your tank looks good and you get a 'test' that looks 'bad' - pay attention to the tank - and see what might be wrong with the test - as a couple o

This is exactly how I managed all my fish only tanks and honestly only tested PH and salinity. No corals or inverts so I never worried about anything else and the only fish I lost were ones that ate each other along with the one time my ex decided to turn the heater up and boiled the entire tank. When I first set this tank up I drove myself mad with tests. Only reason I even tested alk was trying to figure out why my 2 bubble tips look so sad when the other nems are thriving. Good advice my friend. I find myself wanting to make drastic changes when test results are off which just created more issues so I am learning to be slow and patient.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

It has been over 3 months with only RODI water, doing 2 5% changes a week to try and swap the tap water out without too much stress or parameter changes. Do you think the tap water raised it so high it is just going to take more to bring it down?

It's unlikely that your alkalinity is actually that high (16 dkh). While Randy is correct that tap water can have a substantial amount of alkalinity in it, especially if you're in a region with a lot of limestone bedrock, there's a limit to how much alkalinity seawater can "hold" until it precipitates out.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

And while 16 dKH without precipitation isn't out of the question depending on the pH in the tank, it's unlikely that you've started so high that you wound up with 16 dKH after 3 months of only using RODI water, and changing 5% twice a week.

Instead, you probably have an extremely old Red Sea test kit (or a counterfeit) if it doesn't match the instructions that Red Sea posts on line. That would be my first suspicion - your alkalinity results are in error.

The second possibility is that your salinity is a good deal higher than you think it is. You mentioned "38ppm" earlier in the thread. That's incorrect - it should be 38 parts-per-thousand. In any event, natural seawater is about 35 ppt. If you take your alkalinity results of 16 dKH, and multiply by 35/38, you get 14.7. That's still high, but a bit more believable.

If your creatures have been in the tank for weeks, DO NOT ADD ANYTHING, AND DO NOT DO LARGE WATER CHANGES! It's difficult for me to over-emphasize this; in years and years of reading forum posts, I've seen more than my share of people that crashed their tanks trying to "correct" something that they thought was wrong that turned out to be a miscalibrated instrument or an errant, incorrectly executed, or expired test kit.

 

[Todd Kellley]

To be a little more clear about the "air gap" description: When the syringe plunger is at the bottom of the syringe housing, there is air in the plunger tip. However, when you draw a syringe from "0 mL" at the bottom to "1mL", you are still drawing precisely 1 mL of fluid into the syringe (presuming the tip is under the liquid during the draw). There will still be an air gap under the plunger of the syringe barrel, but because the plunger traveled exactly "1mL", this doesn't matter. So you read where the plunger ends up at the end of the titration, regardless of how much air is between it and the liquid in the syringe.

Yep that was my mistake which means I am probably closer to 10 but will test and read properly when I get home. I still have to verfiy I have the correct instructions and table. The directions seem to read right as I read through the redsea instructions online however the ML are different as far as how much water to test and the chart looks nothing like what I find online. Pretty sure most of my bad results are simple human error.

 

[Todd Kellley]

And while 16 dKH without precipitation isn't out of the question depending on the pH in the tank, it's unlikely that you've started so high that you wound up with 16 dKH after 3 months of only using RODI water, and changing 5% twice a week.

Instead, you probably have an extremely old Red Sea test kit (or a counterfeit) if it doesn't match the instructions that Red Sea posts on line. That would be my first suspicion - your alkalinity results are in error.

The second possibility is that your salinity is a good deal higher than you think it is. You mentioned "38ppm" earlier in the thread. That's incorrect - it should be 38 parts-per-thousand. In any event, natural seawater is about 35 ppt. If you take your alkalinity results of 16 dKH, and multiply by 35/38, you get 14.7. That's still high, but a bit more believable.

If your creatures have been in the tank for weeks, DO NOT ADD ANYTHING, AND DO NOT DO LARGE WATER CHANGES! It's difficult for me to over-emphasize this; in years and years of reading forum posts, I've seen more than my share of people that crashed their tanks trying to "correct" something that they thought was wrong that turned out to be a miscalibrated instrument or an errant, incorrectly executed, or expired test kit.

Yes sorry parts per thousand is correct. I use a redsea refractometer and check my calibration frequently. Especially if I get a high or low reading. I will head your advice for sure! Testing can drive you crazy, especially when everything looks good, is active and is eating. Luckily I have fought the urge to make drastic water or dosing changes. I force myself to trust my inhabitants and ask for advice and double even triple check results over a couple day period and 99% of the time I find I have panicked for no reason. Hence last night, after a higher salinity reading then usual and the screwed up alk results I only added a gallon of RO water to bring the salinity down a hair and will add a little more tonight. I have found they will tolerate a higher salinity level being they have adjusted to it over time much better then they handle a drastic drop even if that drop. Like coming home from the LFS and not acclimating them to the new water over time and just dropping them in the tank. Talk about shock!

 

[Todd Kellley]

Can you post a picture of the kit I'm curious to see what it looks like.

I can when I get home, still at work. Have to love 10 hour days at a computer! The forum certainly helps me keep my sanity!

 

[rmurken]

I wonder if this isn't just a mis-read syringe. Are you reading at the bottom of the plunger or the level of the reagent?

Good call. Also are you reading from the top down? The Syringe is full at the 1ml mark, and when you wind up at, say .45, you’ve actually used .55 of titrant, which is confusing. If you’re like me.

Edit: sorry—didn’t realize I hadn’t read the thread all the way. My bad!

 

[Stigigemla]

I once had 16 in kH. A timer for the dosing pump hang up so one morning the tank was totally cloady.
It was a sight of about four inches. Ca was 380 and -sorry I dont remember the Mg level.
I shut off all dosing and did nothing else. The tank cleared up in a day. It was a layer of precipitated calc evrywhere. The corals shook it off in a few hours and then all corals looked good. As the kH was sinking I began to add Calcium and when it was down to 8 Ca was 420. Not a single loss. I started dosing again with a new timer.

As some has said here: Dont do anything drastic.
I would just take out a quarter or so of tank water every day and let the ATO refill until the salinity is down to 3,5%.

By the way - Do you add anything to the ATO water. If You are adding kalkwasser - its the reason for the high kH.

 

[link81]

@Todd Kellley
is this the kit you have?



here is a step by step.
when drawing up the titrant, you draw until the lower rib on the plunger is at the 1ml line, then you add drop by drop until the endpoint color change. then you read the value from the same rib on the plunger. This gives you ml of titrant REMAINING.
Then you subtract that value from 1ml to get the amount of titrant used.

if it's not this kit, then the instructions for using and reading the syringe are exactly the same, the color change is just different, and the indicator gets added prior.

f.y.i, when you add the 4ml (or whatever) for each test with the bigger syringe, the number is read the same way, and there is always a little air inside the syringe. this is OK and accounted for with the values on the side.

here is another really good video by @Bulk Reef Supply

 

[Todd Kellley]

@Todd Kellley
is this the kit you have?



here is a step by step.
when drawing up the titrant, you draw until the lower rib on the plunger is at the 1ml line, then you add drop by drop until the endpoint color change. then you read the value from the same rib on the plunger. This gives you ml of titrant REMAINING.
Then you subtract that value from 1ml to get the amount of titrant used.

if it's not this kit, then the instructions for using and reading the syringe are exactly the same, the color change is just different, and the indicator gets added prior.

f.y.i, when you add the 4ml (or whatever) for each test with the bigger syringe, the number is read the same way, and there is always a little air inside the syringe. this is OK and accounted for with the values on the side.

here is another really good video by @Bulk Reef Supply

Yes that is the kit I have. When I got home last night I pulled it apart and it is a redsea alk kit with sailfert instructions in it! The box had been opened before so the clerk at the LFA store opened it up, went through everything and showed me how to use it. Never pulled the instructions out. I did not test until late Sunday night and never noticed the difference in instructions until everyone started commenting on my thread. First sign of trouble was "redsea only goes to 14" when I could not have come up with 16 if it was on the chart. In reading the two instruction booklets online there is a big difference in the amounts used to measure from one kit to the other so I am reading a KH/Alk chart for one kit while using another as well as reading from the incorrect spot on the 1ml syringe. LFS opens at 11 so I will head there soon and swap this out for a sailfert kits. All my other kits are sailfert but I was told the readsea is more accurate. Not sure how I got the wrong instructions when they keep all their kits behind the counter unless someone opened one of each up to compare and did not pay attention. Everything else is labelled "redsea" so assuming the tritant is for the right kit. Anyways starting fresh today. Thank you for all the great advice!