Alkalinity/Calcium Daily drop with no livestock

[Brew12]

Bacteria do not consume alkalinity' unless nitrate is accumulating. .

Thanks! I missed that connection.

I was under the impression that bacteria consumed the carbon from the carbonate and lower nitrates at the same time. I guess I need to dig into that deeper.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

The fact you are seeing slow changes is a good sign. Nothing good happens fast!

How much are you getting out of your skimmer? Is it working hard and pulling a lot of dark skimmate?

Took a picture of the skimmer cup. This is 2 days since cleaning:

Here is a photo of the rock where it is completely changed color and texture.

Here is a photo of a rock that still shows some of the original purple pigment near the bottom next to what is hopefully corraline growing over it. I think this photo is the best way to describe what Im observing on the rock and where I think all the alk/ca is going.

 

[GoVols]

What do you guys think?

He's going to overdose and precipt. his #'s down.

Seriously,
I'd take it in smaller increments until my daily dose was locked in. If he goes to high at once then he's going have to wait for the big three to drop, before he tries to find the magic #, again.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

Blew up the photo to get a good look at what is growing on the rock...it really looks like crystals to me...not coralline. What do you all think?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks! I missed that connection.

I was under the impression that bacteria consumed the carbon from the carbonate and lower nitrates at the same time. I guess I need to dig into that deeper.

Bacteria that consume organics and nitrate to grow actually produce alkalinity from the nitrate consumption, exactly offsetting the loss in alkalinity when that same amount of nitrate is made in the first place from organics to ammonia to nitrite to nitrate.

 

[GoVols]

What do you all think?

Randy,
Could it be from overdoing and precipt????????????????

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy,
Could it be from overdoing and precipt????????????????

I've never seen visible crystals of calcium carbonate growing from live rock, but I can't prove it isn't.

 

[GoVols]

I've never seen visible crystals of calcium carbonate growing from live rock, but I can't prove it isn't.

I've never seen it either.

I have some "Life Rock" but the time I dosed 5 times the above Seachem's daily limit I got hard sand, frosted glass, param's tanked and it about burnt my pumps up, but the "Life Rock" or any of my live rock never developed any crystal formations.

@Jeff Miotke As you can see . I got impatient and I was an idiot but I've moved up in status to become a happy moron.

 

[GoVols]

What do you all think?

Jeff,
Tagging along.

Freddie

 

[anit77]

If I were to dose the same volume of 2part in my system it would be 305.9ml. If he goes up to 190ml the equivalent would be 470ml.

With no real corals calcifying where is all that 2part going?

 

[GoVols]

If I were to dose the same volume of 2part in my system it would be 305.9ml. If he goes up to 190ml the equivalent would be 470ml.

With no real corals calcifying where is all that 2part going?

It could be precipitating down from too much 2 part at one time.

I don't know if that's how his crystals formed , or not.

If I'm not mistaken, you stated he had precipt. encrusted on his live rock. If that's true then he is or was over dosing causing the precipt. encrust, and his #'s will drop.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm seeing big doses and crystal growth but I can not say, the crystals are sucking up his 2 part, like a 2 part sump.

 

[GoVols]

Readings from today:

NO3 1ppm
pO4 0
Alk 7.2
Ca 410
Mg 1440 (my new salifert kit)

The brown fluffy stuff on the rocks is receding. Greyish green stuff on rocks is more pronounced now. Wiped down film off glass (been doing this every 3 days) and looks brown on cloth as usual.

Added corals look the same.

Plan on upping 2part from 125ml to 190ml/day to keep levels stable. Continued dosing of KNO3 of 1ppm/day.

@Jeff Miotke
Do you use the Red Sea Pro cal kit and if so is it lot# 1115 / epx. 0118?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2626940

 

[Jeff Miotke]

@Jeff Miotke
Do you use the Red Sea Pro cal kit and if so is it lot# 1115 / epx. 0118?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2626940

No it is 1196 09/18

 

[Jeff Miotke]

I found this post last night. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2531192

First and only post i have found that sounds similar to what im experiencing. Though i have tried the stop all dosing. The first time in November when switched from AF to BRS 2 part. And then again between 3/12 and 3/18. Im wondering if my tank is so clean that the CaCO3 crystals are not being poisoned? And instead im growing crystals in my tank which to my eye is what appears to be happening. Maybe stop dosing 2 part again but longer period of time while still dosing KNO3? Take the stony corals out. Get some more life in the tank that has already been suggested by Myka which was chaeto from and sand from a friends tank plus cuc.

I scraped one of the rocks last night and examined what came off. It was like little pieces of grit. I highly suspect this to be deposits of CaCO3. Just so past frustrated at this point and want to move past this.

What if I were to just replace the rock? What would you all recommend and how?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I found this post last night. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2531192

First and only post i have found that sounds similar to what im experiencing. Though i have tried the stop all dosing. The first time in November when switched from AF to BRS 2 part. And then again between 3/12 and 3/18. Im wondering if my tank is so clean that the CaCO3 crystals are not being poisoned? And instead im growing crystals in my tank which to my eye is what appears to be happening. Maybe stop dosing 2 part again but longer period of time while still dosing KNO3? Take the stony corals out. Get some more life in the tank that has already been suggested by Myka which was chaeto from and sand from a friends tank plus cuc.

I scraped one of the rocks last night and examined what came off. It was like little pieces of grit. I highly suspect this to be deposits of CaCO3. Just so past frustrated at this point and want to move past this.

What if I were to just replace the rock? What would you all recommend and how?

Replacing rock won't help if you are experiencing excessive calcium carbonate precipitation.

 

[Myka]

I scraped one of the rocks last night and examined what came off. It was like little pieces of grit. I highly suspect this to be deposits of CaCO3.

Put the grit in vinegar and see what happens. If it's CaCO3 it will dissolve.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

Put the grit in vinegar and see what happens. If it's CaCO3 it will dissolve.

So I scraped a few of the grit pieces off and put them in vinegar in a test vial. Left them there for 2 hours and nothing. They did not dissolve or even fizz. So what the heck could this stuff be?

Maybe I should have started with this but what does CaCO3 precipitate look like? Maybe I'm just being dense.

So today's reading

Alk 7.8

So Im lowering the dosage to 130ml of 2 part. To keep the level between 7 and 8dkh.

 

[anit77]

It's been my, uneducated, feeling from the beginning that what you are seeing on the rock is some form of precipitation. I know your frustrated but this isn't the hobby for those looking for instant gratification. I don't see what the harm is in removing any stony corals and stopping all dosing. Wait a couple weeks and let nature run it's course. Don't even test the alk and focus on keeping the fish healthy and on your coral qt tank. Keep and eye on the organics and run gfo & gac and skim on the wetter side. Add some chaeto to the sump and a cup of some sand from a mature tank while continuing to adding to your cuc stock slowly.

This type methodology has worked great for a lot of people before I don't see why it won't now. Once the everything has bottomed out for a while and you see the color change on the rocks do a decent water change then test again for a few days. If everything is stable then we can look to make some adjustments to bring the numbers up if needed. Once there I think you'll find that a daily number for 2part will be more like 40-50ml.

If you're looking to pickup more coral at the expo next week but are running low on room... I have an empty coral qt tank ready to go. I'd be more than happy to hold a several pieces for you until your DT is ready.

 

[GoVols]

It's been my, uneducated, feeling from the beginning that what you are seeing on the rock is some form of precipitation. I know your frustrated but this isn't the hobby for those looking for instant gratification. I don't see what the harm is in removing any stony corals and stopping all dosing. Wait a couple weeks and let nature run it's course. Don't even test the alk and focus on keeping the fish healthy and on your coral qt tank. Keep and eye on the organics and run gfo & gac and skim on the wetter side. Add some chaeto to the sump and a cup of some sand from a mature tank while continuing to adding to your cuc stock slowly.

+1
To the entire above statement.

Let the reef rest and ions will stable out.

 

[Myka]

So I scraped a few of the grit pieces off and put them in vinegar in a test vial. Left them there for 2 hours and nothing. They did not dissolve or even fizz. So what the heck could this stuff be?

Maybe I should have started with this but what does CaCO3 precipitate look like? Maybe I'm just being dense.

So today's reading

Alk 7.8

So Im lowering the dosage to 130ml of 2 part. To keep the level between 7 and 8dkh.

You used the rocks that are painted to look like coralline, right? I think it's just part of the paint on the rocks that wasn't noticeable before, and now it's peeling off or something along those lines.

In a precipitation event, it looks like someone dusted your tank with powdered sugar. It's very white, sticks to everything, but if you use a turkey baster on it directly, some of it will come off very easily and cloud up the tank. Usually you'll only get precipitate in areas of heat like on heaters and on the magnets of impellers/propellers in pumps or where your dosers drop into the tank, especially if the dosing fluid runs down the glass before dripping into the water. That precipitation looks like bad tartar plaque - it's brownish/yellowish. There are a bunch of pictures in Randy's article What is that precipitate in My Reef Aquarium?

I thought you had already decided on a course of action? You really need to pick something and stick to it. Waffling all over the place isn't helping anything. If you want to cut back doing, sure, but make sure you do the steps I suggested for straightening out the bacteria (waterchanges with frag tank water, Prodibio, etc). I don't think that dosing or not doing will make much difference in your case other than whichever live critters are using it will not be happy.