Alkalinity/Calcium Daily drop with no livestock

Myka · Apr 10, 2017

Weird, it double posted.

Jeff Miotke · Apr 10, 2017

Myka said:
You used the rocks that are painted to look like coralline, right? I think it's just part of the paint on the rocks that wasn't noticeable before, and now it's peeling off or something along those lines.

In a precipitation event, it looks like someone dusted your tank with powdered sugar. It's very white, sticks to everything, but if you use a turkey baster on it directly, some of it will come off very easily and cloud up the tank. Usually you'll only get precipitate in areas of heat like on heaters and on the magnets of impellers/propellers in pumps or where your dosers drop into the tank, especially if the dosing fluid runs down the glass before dripping into the water. That precipitation looks like bad tartar plaque - it's brownish/yellowish. There are a bunch of pictures in Randy's article What is that precipitate in My Reef Aquarium?

I thought you had already decided on a course of action? You really need to pick something and stick to it. Waffling all over the place isn't helping anything. If you want to cut back doing, sure, but make sure you do the steps I suggested for straightening out the bacteria (waterchanges with frag tank water, Prodibio, etc). I don't think that dosing or not doing will make much difference in your case other than whichever live critters are using it will not be happy.

Yea, that is what I thought precipitation would look like. I see no signs of what you described. The crystals/grit are a complete mystery to me. Its definitely on top of the purple pigment though and is some type of deposit. At this point most of the pigment is covered and I'm wondering if once that occurs everything will stabilize.

The link I posted plus what Adam suggested about letting the tank just sit and bottom out is what I think you are referring to as "waffling". I've actually already tried that twice and it had no effect. The first time was when I switched from AF products to just reef salt/2 part BRS in November. I let the tank sit for about 2 to 3 weeks. It bottomed out and I did a 90% water change with AF Reef Salt. The alkalinity levels dropped from high 7's quickly to low 6's. So I resumed dosing at first to just set it where I wanted it at between 7 and 8 dkh. I found myself having to keep adding every day to keep the levels where I wanted them. I stopped dosing again between 3/12 and 3/18 and letting the Alkalinity/Ca bottom out. Again Alk/Ca levels dropped quickly. So I resumed dosing to keep levels between 7 and 8kdh.

I am seeing no harm to the tank. No precipitation on the glass, equipment, sand, sump. Corals seems to be doing ok right now. Fish/Shrimp are fat and happy. Other than being unable to explain why the Kh/Ca levels are being consumed I see no harm to the tank. So Im going to let things ride for now and continue the plan.

I think the KNO3 dosing is making a difference. The brown slime is definitely on the way out. Much of the rock is visible again and the socks are not getting as dirty. I suspect that my first batch of corals in the display tank did so poorly because of a complete lack of nutrients in the water due to following the AF guide for SPS.

So Im still on the same plan which is derived from the advice from Brew and Myka:

1. Continue to dose alk/ca throughout the day to keep levels between 7 and 8
2. Dose KNO3 at 1ppm per day to raise levels ultimately to around 4ppm
3. Stopped feeding frozen food until water stabalizes
4. Stopped water changes
5. Add more life to the tank with Chaeto/sand from friends tank. - not done yet
6. Add nitryfing bacteria (prodibio) - not done yet

Sit back and observe as everyone has repeatedly said that nothing good happens fast in a reef tank.

Anirban · Apr 10, 2017

Jeff Miotke said:
Yea, that is what I thought precipitation would look like. I see no signs of what you described. The crystals/grit are a complete mystery to me. Its definitely on top of the purple pigment though and is some type of deposit. At this point most of the pigment is covered and I'm wondering if once that occurs everything will stabilize.

The link I posted plus what Adam suggested about letting the tank just sit and bottom out is what I think you are referring to as "waffling". I've actually already tried that twice and it had no effect. The first time was when I switched from AF products to just reef salt/2 part BRS in November. I let the tank sit for about 2 to 3 weeks. It bottomed out and I did a 90% water change with AF Reef Salt. When I resumed dosing the consumption was the same as before this period. I stopped dosing again between 3/12 and 3/18 and letting the Alkalinity/Ca bottom out. When I resumed dosing the same consumption occurred.

I am seeing no harm to the tank. No precipitation on the glass, equipment, sand, sump. Corals seems to be doing ok right now. Fish/Shrimp are fat and happy. Other than being unable to explain why the Kh/Ca levels are being consumed I see no harm to the tank. So Im going to let things ride for now and continue the plan.

I think the KNO3 dosing is making a difference. The brown slime is definitely on the way out. Much of the rock is visible again and the socks are not getting as dirty. I suspect that my first batch of corals in the display tank did so poorly because of a complete lack of nutrients in the water due to following the AF guide for SPS.

So Im still on the same plan which is derived from the advice from Brew and Myka:

1. Continue to dose alk/ca throughout the day to keep levels between 7 and 8
2. Dose KNO3 at 1ppm per day to raise levels ultimately to around 4ppm
3. Stopped feeding frozen food until water stabalizes
4. Stopped water changes
5. Add more life to the tank with Chaeto/sand from friends tank. - not done yet
6. Add nitryfing bacteria (prodibio) - not done yet

Sit back and observe as everyone has repeatedly said that nothing good happens fast in a reef tank.

Its great to hear things are moving forward. This is a learning experience for all of us. I think you are spot on about the low nutrient and coral death. That is why I generally dont like starting a ULNS tank. I think its much easier to shift slowly later.

Jeff Miotke · Apr 10, 2017

anit77 said:
It's been my, uneducated, feeling from the beginning that what you are seeing on the rock is some form of precipitation. I know your frustrated but this isn't the hobby for those looking for instant gratification. I don't see what the harm is in removing any stony corals and stopping all dosing. Wait a couple weeks and let nature run it's course. Don't even test the alk and focus on keeping the fish healthy and on your coral qt tank. Keep and eye on the organics and run gfo & gac and skim on the wetter side. Add some chaeto to the sump and a cup of some sand from a mature tank while continuing to adding to your cuc stock slowly.

This type methodology has worked great for a lot of people before I don't see why it won't now. Once the everything has bottomed out for a while and you see the color change on the rocks do a decent water change then test again for a few days. If everything is stable then we can look to make some adjustments to bring the numbers up if needed. Once there I think you'll find that a daily number for 2part will be more like 40-50ml.

If you're looking to pickup more coral at the expo next week but are running low on room... I have an empty coral qt tank ready to go. I'd be more than happy to hold a several pieces for you until your DT is ready.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate your help and your offers. It really means a lot to me and one of the reasons I jumped back into reefing was the social aspect. Im looking forward to the expo but highly doubt I will buy anything until I get things sorted and empty my current frag tank into the display tank.

anit77 · Apr 10, 2017

Where would all of the two part be going? Could a reaction with the coating on the rock be using those ions to create a different crystalline structure, one not prone to dissolving in a weak acid?

Jeff Miotke · Apr 10, 2017

anit77 said:
Where would all of the two part be going? Could a reaction with the coating on the rock be using those ions to create a different crystalline structure, one not prone to dissolving in a weak acid?

Yep thats the original question...Im hoping hindsight will reveal the answer.

Anyway here is today's numbers:

KNO3 2ppm
Alk: 7.7

So dosed 0.9g of KNO3
2 part dosing will continue at 130ml.
2 of 4 of the Zoa frags have been completely closed up for a couple weeks. Today I see a few of the polyps poking out.

carlson · Apr 10, 2017

Jeff Miotke said:
Ill start with at this point I AM SO DAM frustrated I want to throw in the towel. And even worse my wife wants me to bag it call it a failure and sell it all off.

The crux is of the issue is that the water chemistry will not stabilize. Something is very very wrong.

Since Ive set this tank up it burns 1 to 2 dkh per day. Yes per day. With NO LIVESTOCK that would consume it.

No coral.
No coralline.
A few fish.

I have spoken with many folks and NOBODY can explain to me what is going on. Ive read everything on the forums I could find.

So. Normally this would be explained by precipitation. Look at the glass, heaters, pumps, sump and check the sand. NONE of these areas have shown any signs of precipitation.

Ive tried the following to hit my target numbers of dKh of 7.5 to 8 and Calcium of 420 to 430ppm:

Increase dosing. This increases consumption/precipitation rate.
Decrease or stop dosing. This results in the dKh bottoming out around 5.
No dosing for 3 weeks to allow for any CaCO3 nucleation sites to be poisoned and no longer precipitate. After resumed by adding 0.5 dkh Alkalinity per day
Different types of dosing: 2 part (both recipes using carbonate and bicarbonate), balling method, tropic marin bio calcium
90% water change to reset
Changed Salt mixes
Checked Mg over and over and its around 1500 (probably high reading with RedSea test kit)

Nothing has made any difference. Same consumption. The calcium and alkalinity just disappear over night every single day.

I have a 20 gallon frag tank that I pictured previously. This is where my corals are and they are doing OK. The Alkalinity and Calcium levels in this tank are solid. No daily swings. Normal consumption of 2 to 4 ml/week of 2 part.

So I've looked at the differences between the tanks and the difference outside of equipment (pretty sure I can eliminate the equipment from consuming alkalinity/Ca as at this point it would be a solid block of concrete.) is that the display tank has sand and rock.

The sand is Caribsea special grade live sand. It looks normal. It behaves normally. It has no clumping. I stir it and nothing out of the ordinary happens just a bit of detritus kicks up. No signs of anything wrong.

The rock is Caribsea life rock. It is the manmade purple stuff. Ive been closely observing everything in the last few weeks and noticed that the rock is no longer purple. It is encrusted with grey/greyish green/brown. I tried brushing the rock off and this does nothing so this coating is certainly attached. Is it possible that the rock is precipitating the alkalinity/calcium?

I reached out to the LFS and they never heard of such a thing but quickly qualified it with they don't know of anyone who did a full tank build with this rock. They were kind enough to reach out to Caribsea. Caribsea of course denied that it could be the rock causing the issue.

So I'm left with a mystery and a tank that has very unstable water conditions. Ive tested coral in the tank and it either barely hangs on or dies. I'm stuck. Its been 6 months and I cant put any coral in my REEF tank.

What would you do? Looking for any and all advice.

It takes a while for tanks to become stable, you could also have an ionic imbalance.

Myka · Apr 10, 2017

Jeff Miotke said:
The link I posted plus what Adam suggested about letting the tank just sit and bottom out is what I think you are referring to as "waffling".

No I meant that I thought you had a plan (like you laid out previously) but you were grumbling again so I thought you were "waffling" towards tinkering again. Haha. I was expecting you not to visit this thread again for a week or so because you would simply be following the plan. It sounds like you are though, so now I just wait and watch with you.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 11, 2017

anit77 said:
Where would all of the two part be going? Could a reaction with the coating on the rock be using those ions to create a different crystalline structure, one not prone to dissolving in a weak acid?

No.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 11, 2017

carlson said:
It takes a while for tanks to become stable, you could also have an ionic imbalance.

What sort of imbalance?

anit77 · Apr 11, 2017

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
No.

Thanks

Could you explain what process that isn't precipitation or biological calcification could use up this type volume of 2-part dosed daily into a 105 gallon system? Where is it all going?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 11, 2017

anit77 said:
Thanks

Could you explain what process that isn't precipitation or biological calcification could use up this type volume of 2-part dosed daily into a 105 gallon system? Where is it all going?

There isn't any other process that uses a lot. lol

That said, you don't need to see either growth or precipitation for that to be the sink for a substantial amount. Even a soft coral tank can use 2 dKH and the proportional amount of calcium per day. Many folks have "unusually" high demand, and that may be precipitation in places they cannot see, such as onto sand grains.

To reduce precipitation you can:

1. Ensure magnesium is normal to high
2. Allow organics and phosphate to be normal to high
3. Keep the pH on the low side (e.g., use baking soda for the two part, not sodium carbonate).
4. Maintain alkalinity near 7 dKH and not much higher.
5. Take a break from dosing for several days to allow growing calcium carbonate crystals to become coated in stuff (magnesium, phosphate, organics, etc.) that block further precipitation.

Jeff Miotke · Apr 11, 2017

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
There isn't any other process that uses a lot. lol

That said, you don't need to see either growth or precipitation for that to be the sink for a substantial amount. Even a soft coral tank can use 2 dKH and the proportional amount of calcium per day. Many folks have "unusually" high demand, and that may be precipitation in places they cannot see, such as onto sand grains.

To reduce precipitation you can:

1. Ensure magnesium is normal to high
2. Allow organics and phosphate to be normal to high
3. Keep the pH on the low side (e.g., use baking soda for the two part, not sodium carbonate).
4. Maintain alkalinity near 7 dKH and not much higher.
5. Take a break from dosing for several days to allow growing calcium carbonate crystals to become coated in stuff (magnesium, phosphate, organics, etc.) that block further precipitation.

Awesome. Thanks Randy.

This is my thinking of where Im at:

1. Ensure magnesium is normal to high -- The tank is good here with somewhere between 1380 and 1440 which would be considered high side.
2. Allow organics and phosphate to be normal to high -- I think this is the root of the problem. The organics/phosphates/nutrients have been extremely low due to the AF guide.
3. Keep the pH on the low side (e.g., use baking soda for the two part, not sodium carbonate). -- The pH has been between about 7.8 and 8.0 which should mean less possibility for precipitation and be considered on the low end.
4. Maintain alkalinity near 7 dKH and not much higher. Been shooting for between 7 and 8 dkh. Just trying to keep it from slipping under 7 which will happen overnight without the 2 part dosing.
5. Take a break from dosing for several days to allow growing calcium carbonate crystals to become coated in stuff (magnesium, phosphate, organics, etc.) that block further precipitation. -- Have taken a break twice with no change. But I think this leads back to low organics/phosphates/nutrients in the tank.

So hopefully increasing the nutrients/life in the tank will also solve the large 2 part dosing issue.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 11, 2017

That all sounds good!

Good luck.

bhavy · Apr 11, 2017

Hello Jeff!
I feel your pain! I have a 200 gal and its 6 months old . I have exact problem. Although everyone can't give me a reason why my ALK drops 2 Dkh in a 24 hour period when I have 3 Montiporas and a hammer and 1 gonipora . I have zero Coraline although in the second month I had what seemed like white encrusting algae maybe Coraline but it's gone now. Fish health, corals were growing but seemed to slow. Montipora lost its color. I have a real hard time keeping my Dkh above 7!
At one point I was dosing 8 oz of 2 part everyday for a week. That's almost a gallon! Based off of this club if any other reefer did that they'd have a Dkh of 14 and calcium of 500!
I don't have a Doser yet, I must admit. I would dose 8 oz in my display in a high flow area. I've seen you tube videos of precipitation . Mine does not when dosing but apparently it must after 24 hrs.
I'd love to bounce ideas off you. It's driving me nuts!!!! I stopped stocking the tank until I can easily balance my numbers

Myka · Apr 11, 2017

Jeff, another thing you may want to consider is allowing your skimmer to overflow at night. I remove the cup and put a tupperware container over the neck so it doesn't spray all over. I've been doing that with my tank for some months now. It definitely helps to increase available organics for the night to pollute potential areas of precipitation.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 12, 2017

bhavy said:
Hello Jeff!
I feel your pain! I have a 200 gal and its 6 months old . I have exact problem. Although everyone can't give me a reason why my ALK drops 2 Dkh in a 24 hour period when I have 3 Montiporas and a hammer and 1 gonipora . I have zero Coraline although in the second month I had what seemed like white encrusting algae maybe Coraline but it's gone now. Fish health, corals were growing but seemed to slow. Montipora lost its color. I have a real hard time keeping my Dkh above 7!
At one point I was dosing 8 oz of 2 part everyday for a week. That's almost a gallon! Based off of this club if any other reefer did that they'd have a Dkh of 14 and calcium of 500!
I don't have a Doser yet, I must admit. I would dose 8 oz in my display in a high flow area. I've seen you tube videos of precipitation . Mine does not when dosing but apparently it must after 24 hrs.
I'd love to bounce ideas off you. It's driving me nuts!!!! I stopped stocking the tank until I can easily balance my numbers

2 dKH per day is not uncommon in even a soft coral tank, but the demand is always a combination of consumption by organisms and abiotic precipitation (and, if nitrate is rising, some depletion of alk through nitrification).

There are no other possibilities.

Repeating what I posted above, if you think you are dosing excessively, then to reduce precipitation you can:

1. Ensure magnesium is normal to high
2. Allow organics and phosphate to be normal to high
3. Keep the pH on the low side (e.g., use baking soda for the two part, not sodium carbonate).
4. Maintain alkalinity near 7 dKH and not much higher.
5. Take a break from dosing for several days to allow growing calcium carbonate crystals to become coated in stuff (magnesium, phosphate, organics, etc.) that block further precipitation.

robert mcconnell · Jun 16, 2017

Jeff Miotke said:
Ill start with at this point I AM SO DAM frustrated I want to throw in the towel. And even worse my wife wants me to bag it call it a failure and sell it all off.

The crux is of the issue is that the water chemistry will not stabilize. Something is very very wrong.

Since Ive set this tank up it burns 1 to 2 dkh per day. Yes per day. With NO LIVESTOCK that would consume it.

No coral.
No coralline.
A few fish.

I have spoken with many folks and NOBODY can explain to me what is going on. Ive read everything on the forums I could find.

So. Normally this would be explained by precipitation. Look at the glass, heaters, pumps, sump and check the sand. NONE of these areas have shown any signs of precipitation.

Ive tried the following to hit my target numbers of dKh of 7.5 to 8 and Calcium of 420 to 430ppm:

Increase dosing. This increases consumption/precipitation rate.
Decrease or stop dosing. This results in the dKh bottoming out around 5.
No dosing for 3 weeks to allow for any CaCO3 nucleation sites to be poisoned and no longer precipitate. After resumed by adding 0.5 dkh Alkalinity per day
Different types of dosing: 2 part (both recipes using carbonate and bicarbonate), balling method, tropic marin bio calcium
90% water change to reset
Changed Salt mixes
Checked Mg over and over and its around 1500 (probably high reading with RedSea test kit)

Nothing has made any difference. Same consumption. The calcium and alkalinity just disappear over night every single day.

I have a 20 gallon frag tank that I pictured previously. This is where my corals are and they are doing OK. The Alkalinity and Calcium levels in this tank are solid. No daily swings. Normal consumption of 2 to 4 ml/week of 2 part.

So I've looked at the differences between the tanks and the difference outside of equipment (pretty sure I can eliminate the equipment from consuming alkalinity/Ca as at this point it would be a solid block of concrete.) is that the display tank has sand and rock.

The sand is Caribsea special grade live sand. It looks normal. It behaves normally. It has no clumping. I stir it and nothing out of the ordinary happens just a bit of detritus kicks up. No signs of anything wrong.

The rock is Caribsea life rock. It is the manmade purple stuff. Ive been closely observing everything in the last few weeks and noticed that the rock is no longer purple. It is encrusted with grey/greyish green/brown. I tried brushing the rock off and this does nothing so this coating is certainly attached. Is it possible that the rock is precipitating the alkalinity/calcium?

I reached out to the LFS and they never heard of such a thing but quickly qualified it with they don't know of anyone who did a full tank build with this rock. They were kind enough to reach out to Caribsea. Caribsea of course denied that it could be the rock causing the issue.

So I'm left with a mystery and a tank that has very unstable water conditions. Ive tested coral in the tank and it either barely hangs on or dies. I'm stuck. Its been 6 months and I cant put any coral in my REEF tank.

What would you do? Looking for any and all advice.

It's your rock it doesn't matter what rock you have they all have to be cycled try putting in bacteria and let your tank cycle