All but one fish missing other fish swimming but breathing rapidly

[ccombs]

Thank you for clearing that up for me. No I have not when you say vodka are you talking about the alcoholic drink Vodka??

Yes, some people like to get their fish drunk... JK JK JK.

Some vodkas that are pure and not flavored have been used by aquarists as a source of organic carbon. In the right amount it can be an effective method for adding it.

 

[NinnJinn]

Yes, some people like to get their fish drunk... JK JK JK.

Some vodkas that are pure and not flavored have been used by aquarists as a source of organic carbon. In the right amount it can be an effective method for adding it.

I Will this work?? If so how much do I pour in as of right now I'm grasping at straws it's a 125 gallon DT with a 40 gallon sump

 

[ccombs]

I Will this work?? If so how much do I pour in as of right now I'm grasping at straws it's a 125 gallon DT with a 40 gallon sump

Don't add anything, this isn't a fix for your situation, Lasse just wanted to know so he could help diagnose the problem.

 

[Raege]

I Will this work?? If so how much do I pour in as of right now I'm grasping at straws it's a 125 gallon DT with a 40 gallon sump

You may like a nip or two for yourself after your ordeal as somone who thought about Med school for a couple minutes I would prescribe it
As said above hold off on the tank yet anyway

 

[Lasse]

My questions was aimed to analyse the situation. I have no experiences of the API kit - but I have seen many people here that do not trust their ammonia test. It is probably wrong - but even if it was showing the right value (0.25 mg/l) it show both NH3 and NH4. It is NH3 (ammoniac) that is of concern and can have a toxic effect. At your pH (8.2) around 8 % of the 0.25 mg/l is in the toxic form NH3. - it means that your NH3 levels (if your test shoe the right value - which I doubt) could be around 0.02 mg/l NH3 - and that will not kill fish.

Your problem caused by NH3 – ruled out IMO


Water change 2 weeks before the outbreak – problem not connected with chloramines – IMO


The question about adding DOC (Dissolved Organic carbon) was because you talk about some cloudiness. DOC will promote bacteria growth and if it is overdosed – you will get cloudy water because of bacteria bloom. Bacteria consume oxygen …... You did not use it, but you clean the sump with vinegar 2 weeks ago. Vinegar is a powerful DOC but the cloudiness should been earlier IMO –


Caused by DOC – not total ruled out but probably not


Need to ask more questions


The reddish stuff you talk about – could it be cyanobacteria?


Have you used any kind of chemical use near or around the tank? (air freshners, carpet cleaners, aerosol sprays or scented candles).


Sincerely Lasse

 

[NinnJinn]

My questions was aimed to analyse the situation. I have no experiences of the API kit - but I have seen many people here that do not trust their ammonia test. It is probably wrong - but even if it was showing the right value (0.25 mg/l) it show both NH3 and NH4. It is NH3 (ammoniac) that is of concern and can have a toxic effect. At your pH (8.2) around 8 % of the 0.25 mg/l is in the toxic form NH3. - it means that your NH3 levels (if your test shoe the right value - which I doubt) could be around 0.02 mg/l NH3 - and that will not kill fish.

Your problem caused by NH3 – ruled out IMO


Water change 2 weeks before the outbreak – problem not connected with chloramines – IMO


The question about adding DOC (Dissolved Organic carbon) was because you talk about some cloudiness. DOC will promote bacteria growth and if it is overdosed – you will get cloudy water because of bacteria bloom. Bacteria consume oxygen …... You did not use it, but you clean the sump with vinegar 2 weeks ago. Vinegar is a powerful DOC but the cloudiness should been earlier IMO –


Caused by DOC – not total ruled out but probably not


Need to ask more questions


The reddish stuff you talk about – could it be cyanobacteria?


Have you used any kind of chemical use near or around the tank? (air freshners, carpet cleaners, aerosol sprays or scented candles).


Sincerely Lasse

There was aerosol disinfectants used approximately two and a half months ago but those were in other rooms and away from the room that has the tank. The kids bedrooms they had spent two days out of school with the flu

As far as cyanobacteria I have no clue

But I'm wondering what I do have though... My liverock is got the same stuff as it did back 13 months ago when I first started cycling my tank.

After the cycle was finished I had bought some trochus snails and they clean the rock up quite nicely it's a trochus snails have since been eaten buy an crab that I had.

This is what my back glass looks like that I cannot reach



Here are pictures of what my live rock currently looks like....

No real Coral just fake stuff...

 

[NinnJinn]

My questions was aimed to analyse the situation. I have no experiences of the API kit - but I have seen many people here that do not trust their ammonia test. It is probably wrong - but even if it was showing the right value (0.25 mg/l) it show both NH3 and NH4. It is NH3 (ammoniac) that is of concern and can have a toxic effect. At your pH (8.2) around 8 % of the 0.25 mg/l is in the toxic form NH3. - it means that your NH3 levels (if your test shoe the right value - which I doubt) could be around 0.02 mg/l NH3 - and that will not kill fish.

Your problem caused by NH3 – ruled out IMO


Water change 2 weeks before the outbreak – problem not connected with chloramines – IMO


The question about adding DOC (Dissolved Organic carbon) was because you talk about some cloudiness. DOC will promote bacteria growth and if it is overdosed – you will get cloudy water because of bacteria bloom. Bacteria consume oxygen …... You did not use it, but you clean the sump with vinegar 2 weeks ago. Vinegar is a powerful DOC but the cloudiness should been earlier IMO –


Caused by DOC – not total ruled out but probably not


Need to ask more questions


The reddish stuff you talk about – could it be cyanobacteria?


Have you used any kind of chemical use near or around the tank? (air freshners, carpet cleaners, aerosol sprays or scented candles).


Sincerely Lasse

Also, not sure if this matters any but last week my wavemaker stopped working so I didn't have one in the tank for 4 days when I put the new one in it started blowing this dark brownish reddish stuff everywhere off of the top of the rocks.


And to me, in person the rocks look darker than they do in the pictures that i just posted.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

I'll put forth the theory that Lasse's probably asking questions to rule in or out. The cloudiness in your tank is a definite clue, and is usually caused by a massive bacterial bloom. That in turn causes a steep drop in dissolved oxygen in the tank, which would definitely cause the symptoms in your fish.

Since you've not been dosing carbon (NoPox, Vinegar or Vodka), and you're sure that a large creature hasn't died in the tank, I'd re-focus on a toxin possibility, and it'd be important to question your family. The first one to eliminate is the use of benzalkonium chloride anywhere even close to the tank. Benzalkonium chloride is most commonly known in formulations of Lysol in a household setting, and it is extremely toxic to marine life. Any use of this anywhere near your tank in the last day or two would explain the bacterial bloom and the toxic effect on your fish.

You also mentioned children in the house. If they're very young, it's not impossible that they thought the fish needed some "extra food" and "helped them out" by adding some. If so, the amount of food that would be added (i.e., even a few teaspoons), and the sugar that it would typically contain would cause a massive bacterial bloom. To give you an example, a friend of mine's daughter thought the fish were thirsty and poured a few ounces of coca cola into the tank - instant white out. It took several weeks to re-stabilize the tank.

If the kids are not young enough to have "helped the fish", then you'll want to examine your filtration. If it's as simple as just overflowing into a reef sock, with a skimmer and a heater and then back through a return pump into the tank, then the possibility I'll discuss next is unlikely. But if you've a reactor to run granular activated carbon, granular ferric oxide, or biopellets, if the reactor pump gets shut down for a few hours and then was started back up again, you can get a pulse of hydrogen sulfide into the tank, again with deadly effects and (typically) a bacterial bloom.

 

[NinnJinn]

I'll put forth the theory that Lasse's probably asking questions to rule in or out. The cloudiness in your tank is a definite clue, and is usually caused by a massive bacterial bloom. That in turn causes a steep drop in dissolved oxygen in the tank, which would definitely cause the symptoms in your fish.

Since you've not been dosing carbon (NoPox, Vinegar or Vodka), and you're sure that a large creature hasn't died in the tank, I'd re-focus on a toxin possibility, and it'd be important to question your family. The first one to eliminate is the use of benzalkonium chloride anywhere even close to the tank. Benzalkonium chloride is most commonly known in formulations of Lysol in a household setting, and it is extremely toxic to marine life. Any use of this anywhere near your tank in the last day or two would explain the bacterial bloom and the toxic effect on your fish.

You also mentioned children in the house. If they're very young, it's not impossible that they thought the fish needed some "extra food" and "helped them out" by adding some. If so, the amount of food that would be added (i.e., even a few teaspoons), and the sugar that it would typically contain would cause a massive bacterial bloom. To give you an example, a friend of mine's daughter thought the fish were thirsty and poured a few ounces of coca cola into the tank - instant white out. It took several weeks to re-stabilize the tank.

If the kids are not young enough to have "helped the fish", then you'll want to examine your filtration. If it's as simple as just overflowing into a reef sock, with a skimmer and a heater and then back through a return pump into the tank, then the possibility I'll discuss next is unlikely. But if you've a reactor to run granular activated carbon, granular ferric oxide, or biopellets, if the reactor pump gets shut down for a few hours and then was started back up again, you can get a pulse of hydrogen sulfide into the tank, again with deadly effects and (typically) a bacterial bloom.

When you say bacterial bloom, is that something that could just happen instantly?

Because yesterday morning when I fed the fish everything was normal. tank clear fish eating and swimming like normal. I left for 2 hours came back saw this reddish brown stringy stuff floating in my tank and then the wavemaker kicked on and that's when everything went downhill.

Also you mentioned Lysol... Lysol disinfectant in a spray can is in fact what I was using in the kids's bedrooms when they were sick..

 

[Dkeller_nc]

When you say bacterial bloom, is that something that could just happen instantly?

Because yesterday morning when I fed the fish everything was normal. tank clear fish eating and swimming like normal. I left for 2 hours came back saw this reddish brown stringy stuff floating in my tank and then the wavemaker kicked on and that's when everything went downhill.

Also you mentioned Lysol... Lysol disinfectant in a spray can is in fact what I was using in the kids's bedrooms when they were sick..

Yes, a bacterial bloom can happen in as little as 15-30 minutes given the proper inducement (like a big dose of sugar), though 2-3 hours is more usual from the death of a large creature. The toxicity effect from spraying lysol or an equivalent product around the tank would happen very rapidly, however. It certainly wouldn't have been a delayed effect from a month or two ago.

The red stringy stuff you were seeing in the tank water is simply cyanobacteria, and while perhaps unsightly, it's harmless. It's just that your tank was without flow for 3 or 4 days, which allowed the carpet of cyano to get a bit thicker on your rocks. When the wavemaker turned on, it blew some of it off of the rocks and into the water column.

But you mentioned a new wavemaker - did you clean this before putting it into your tank, and if so, with what? A water rinse? A dunk in vinegar?

 

[Lasse]

It is like a murder case with Columbo - if you are old enough to remember that show

When you say bacterial bloom, is that something that could just happen instantly?

Yes, a bacterial bloom can happen in as little as 15-30 minutes given the proper inducement (like a big dose of sugar), though 2-3 hours is more usual from the death of a large creature. The toxicity effect from spraying lysol or an equivalent product around the tank would happen very rapidly, however. It certainly wouldn't have been a delayed effect from a month or two ago.

Yes but as Dkeller_nc highlighted - it needs an organic carbon source in order to develop as fast as you describe it. Normally it is coming from the outside (you or someone else put it in) but (and a serious but) it can come from an internal source too.

However - Is it enough with an oxygen demanding development of bacteria, hence creating an oxygen efficiency - in order to create the problem that you have describe? The event seems to relate to the adding of a (new from the box?) wavemaker in one or another way. This adding would more or less have raised the oxygen level (surface aggregation) and after the WC – the fish should not have been much better – not shown up prolonged damage.

Oxygen depletion as the only factor – 90 % ruled out IMO

If it's as simple as just overflowing into a reef sock, with a skimmer and a heater and then back through a return pump into the tank, then the possibility I'll discuss next is unlikely. But if you've a reactor to run granular activated carbon, granular ferric oxide, or biopellets, if the reactor pump gets shut down for a few hours and then was started back up again, you can get a pulse of hydrogen sulfide into the tank, again with deadly effects and (typically) a bacterial bloom.

Can be an option but the adding of a wavemaker should have oxidised the most of the hydrogen sulphide rather fast and the effect of hydrogen sulphide is a matter of half an hour – it kill more or less instantly - however it needs more information in order to be ruled out IMO. How does your filtration system look like? As a single factor - probably ruled out.

I will concentrate me on three things you mentioned, adding of a wavemaker, reddish stuff everywhere and cloudiness.

But you mentioned a new wavemaker - did you clean this before putting it into your tank, and if so, with what? A water rinse? A dunk in vinegar?

Definitely a possibility as a toxic source if it was put in directly. I have been out for a similar events back in the 80:ties with a brand new EHIEM internal filter and sensitive Tanganyika cichlids – however is was a small aquaria and a rather large filter.

If cleaned - interesting to know what you use.

Can´t be ruled out in this stage – but likely? – IMO - maybe not

Back to toxic gases from the air - the increased gas exghange created by the wavemaker can have transport gases into the water - not ruled out yet

Your pictures show a bloom of benthic cyanobacteria (the reddish stuff) for sure. During some circumstances these mats can release toxins if disturbed – you often get a certain smell from it – and can you smell it – it a gas. Further on – the mats consist of cells and a gelatinous casing. This casing content a lot of sugar species too.

If the mats had growing thick during the time you had no wavemaker – the adding of the wavemaker can explain the whole event and your problems with sick and dying fish.

The waves disturbed the mats, they released both DOC, toxins and probably some hydrogen sulphide and create at least a temporary oxygen depletion. - Fish getting poisoned and maybe get permanent damage.

Is this theory the truth? I do not know but for the moment I can´t rule it out. But you have a very irrational factor in your household - you can spell that factor just as you spell the word kids

Is it possible to rule out the Cyanobacteria theory (outlined above) - IMO not. @Dkeller_nc and others - please help out with other angles of the problem.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Lasse - That's about all I can think of at the moment. Again, if the kids in the house are very young, something could've been added to the tank that the OP isn't aware of, but he/she is going to have to rule that in or out.

The cyanobacteria as a source of a toxin is a reasonable thought; this certainly occurs with the blue-green species common to freshwater systems. But I've honestly never heard of this happening with the red cyanobacteria complex in reef tanks, if proven to be the case, that would be a first in my experience. Red dinoflagellates are another matter entirely, since these are the organisms that cause "red tide" in coastal waters that prove quite deadly to most marine creatures. But I've never heard of them existing and/or blooming in a reef tank.

I think we'll have to wait on the OP to post more information to make further inferences.

And yeah, sadly I'm easily old enough to remember "Columbo"

 

[NinnJinn]

@Lasse @Dkeller_nc

Thank you so much for trying to help me out!

I'm currently at work and we'll be off in about 6 hours and will explain further 1 questions that you have asked.

Right now I am using my cell phone to type this message.

As for smell, I have a tight lid on my display tank and a Jimmy rigged cover on my Sump except for where the skimmer is. So sitting in my living room I don't really smell anything. However when I lifted the lid of the DT I do smell like a sulfur type smell.

As for the New Wave Maker unfortunately no I didn't clean it I just took it out of the box looked at it and stuck it into my display tank. And as for filtration I changed out my filter sock when the tank went cloudy I will take a picture of it but I am very very embarrassed to say it was practically black looking.

I will update this post when I am off work... Again thank you guys so much for helping

 

[Dkeller_nc]

@Lasse @Dkeller_nc
As for smell, I have a tight lid on my display tank and a Jimmy rigged cover on my Sump except for where the skimmer is. So sitting in my living room I don't really smell anything. However when I lifted the lid of the DT I do smell like a sulfur type smell.

Hmm - That's definitely not good. Hydrogen sulfide smells like rotten eggs; is it possible that you had a lot of detritus in the sand bed, and the wavemaker blew the sand around? As for advice, for right now I'd definitely be uncovering the sump to ensure good gas exchange.

 

[Lasse]

Hmm - That's definitely not good. Hydrogen sulfide smells like rotten eggs; is it possible that you had a lot of detritus in the sand bed, and the wavemaker blew the sand around? As for advice, for right now I'd definitely be uncovering the sump to ensure good gas exchange.

Yes it can be of concern

But I've honestly never heard of this happening with the red cyanobacteria complex in reef tanks, if proven to be the case, that would be a first in my experience.

I have not seen (by myself) that any fish have been affected of red Cyanobacteria - however I have many times seen that corals have been affected by huge benthic Cyanobacteria bloom. I have a friend that get an outbreak of cyanobacteria around 10 years ago. I do not remember if it was of a red variant (it seems to be different strains of the red variant) or a green one. It was close that both he, his girlfriend and their dog get killed. They wake up during night from the dog throw up and feel bad by themselves and got out of the apartment. He had no zoanthids in the aquaria – only huge amount of cyanobacteria of some strain. Cyanobacteria toxins can´t be ruled out IMO


Sincerely Lasse

 

[NinnJinn]

Hmm - That's definitely not good. Hydrogen sulfide smells like rotten eggs; is it possible that you had a lot of detritus in the sand bed, and the wavemaker blew the sand around? As for advice, for right now I'd definitely be uncovering the sump to ensure good gas exchange.

Due to your description of smell, I am going to have to let my girlfriend win this argument. LOL she said the tank smell like rotten eggs I said it smell like sulfur... all I can say is it has a very foul smell.

I had quickly mentioned earlier in the day that I would post embarrassing pictures of the filter sock. not sure if it will help any but here it goes..







Late last night my basslet finally made an appearance and was breathing heavily and the blue hippo Tang had its mouth wide open breathing rapidly.

Observation as of this posting, basslet basslet and tang and orange spotted goby are out and about the goby and basslet are breathing normally the Tang now has its mouth normally not wide open and the gills seem to be moving much slower than the last 2 days. Not sure if the coral beauty moved from laying on its side to a hiding place or if my Nassarius snails and hermit crabs managed to make a quick meal of it. But it is Mia.

A few minutes ago I cleaned out my skimmer collection cup because it was half full of stinky smelly nasty stuff. If anyone cares it's a bubble Magus curve 5. The tank is 6 ft long and looking at one end to the other through 6 ft of water the tank is much clearer than it was but not Crystal Clear like I am used to.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

The filter sock looks pretty normal to me, except with the addition of red cyanobacteria. Based on your descriptions, I'd highly recommend that you uncover the sump, and uncover the tank to allow as much gas exchange as you can. Open a window near the tank to allow off-gassed hydrogen sulfide out of your home.

Here's the best theory I can come up with in regards to what happened. You had an extensive mat of cyanobacteria on your rocks and/or sand, and it was thick enough to prevent free water exchange, and the substrate underneath went anoxic. Anoxic zones in reef tanks can produce hydrogen sulfide, which was the case here. As soon as the new wavemaker was introduced, it blew the cyano mats apart, which allowed the release of hydrogen sulfide into the tank. Since the tank and the sump were tightly covered, the skimmer just couldn't keep up with expelling the hydrogen sulfide, and also couldn't supply enough oxygen to the water to make up for the consumption of oxygen that was occurring from the oxidation of sulfide to sulfate.

I'm happy that most of your fish seemed to have made it. Most of the time, this sort of event kills everything in the tank.

 

[LiamPM]

Do you only run your Wavemakers in increments? On a timer? Got that impression from your original post..... I think Dkeller_nc is on the right track with the theory here.... feel you have had a gas exchange/oxygen issue through a newly formed bacterial bloom

 

[NinnJinn]

Do you only run your Wavemakers in increments? On a timer? Got that impression from your original post..... I think Dkeller_nc is on the right track with the theory here.... feel you have had a gas exchange/oxygen issue through a newly formed bacterial bloom

After this happening I'm second-guessing myself, but originally I didn't really see a need for a controller program such as Apex.
So I did not have to go through the trouble of getting inside of C stand to turn off the wavemaker I am plugged it into a digital timer that shut the wavemaker off 3x a day so that I could feed.


for the short version, my initial wavemaker quit working so I ordered a new one which made the only circulation if you will from the Overflow through the sump and back into the tank for 4 days. when I installed the new wave maker I plugged it into the automatic timer and pretty much this is what happened.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

If you like the idea of an Apex, I'd highly recommend it, as it provides a great deal of safety and convenience to the reefer, particularly with regard to tank heater safety and (with the $15 external power supply and a cheap UPS) power outage notification.

But it's certainly not required to run a nice reef aquarium. In particular, if you want controllability of your wavemakers, several companies offer stand-alone products, like Ecotech's Vortechs, Tunze Controllable Stream pumps, and the MaxSpect Gyre. Given the size of your tank, and if you want to minimize the expenditure, I'd go with a Maxspect Gyre, 3rd generation. They generate a massive amount of flow in a very broad stream for a single pump. More expensive but a whole lot smaller would be the Vortechs or Stream pumps. They also generate a massive amount of flow compared to single-speed AC voltage wavemakers, but the flow is more concentrated, so most reefers wind up with multiple ones to create a broad flow field.