All For Reef and UV?

[Variant]

@Lou Ekus I have been watching more about the all for reef product on YouTube and it sounds like bacteria is involved in making alkalinity available. If this is true, would use of a UV sterilizer affect the potency or balance of All For Reef since the bacteria population may be lower?

 

[Waynerock]

@Lou Ekus I have been watching more about the all for reef product on YouTube and it sounds like bacteria is involved in making alkalinity available. If this is true, would use of a UV sterilizer affect the potency or balance of All For Reef since the bacteria population may be lower?

After dosing AFR for almost a year and having a decent UV on the whole time I don’t think the UV effects much. Not in my case anyway. I do think chemiclean does though. On the few occasions I dosed chemiclean I had to adjust my dose to dose less because my Alk was rising, quickly at that. Or the corals where ticked about the chemiclean and kinda shut down and stopped using as much Alk. After I do the water change my Alk consumption goes right back to normal. I wonder

 

[Lou Ekus]

@Lou Ekus I have been watching more about the all for reef product on YouTube and it sounds like bacteria is involved in making alkalinity available. If this is true, would use of a UV sterilizer affect the potency or balance of All For Reef since the bacteria population may be lower?

The bacteria that is responsible for converting the calcium formate, in AFR, into alkalinity exist largerly within the coral polyps. So running a UV unit will not affect the conversion.

 

[flampton]

The bacteria that is responsible for converting the calcium formate, in AFR, into alkalinity exist largerly within the coral polyps. So running a UV unit will not affect the conversion.

To go a bit further than what @Lou Ekus Just said I'll add a bit more scientific background. Stop reading if you don't care, haha! If we look at the coral animal further the bacteria responsible will be found within the corals anaerobic (without O2) or microaerobic (less oxygen) zones in the coral skeleton and the mucus layer. These bacteria use the formate as an electron donor in the process of making energy. Which is great because the coral animal will see this alkalinity and calcium release right where they may need it. In fact a bonus to all this is that some types of formate utilizing bacteria will also reduce nitrate within the aquarium. So that's something else to consider when using AFR. E.g. may need less carbon dosing or other nitrate reducing schemes to stay at the level you want to achieve.

However don't fear if you don't have a lot of coral because this conversion will also take place anywhere that has low oxygen tension in your tank. So bacteria within the live rock and within the sand bed will also allow for the increase in calcium andalkalinity.

Also a fun fact is that if you use AFR there is a increase in hydrogen gas production within the aquarium. So keep your aquarium away from flames, lol

Also to agree with the above all these bacteria are not in the water column and will not be effected by your UV.

Edited: cleaned up my messaging because I was too blunt in my post, and it read poorly.

 

[User1]

To go a bit further than what @Lou Ekus Just said I'll add a bit more scientific background. Stop reading if you don't care, haha! If we look at the coral animal further the bacteria responsible will be found within the corals anaerobic (without O2) or microaerobic (less oxygen) zones in the coral skeleton and the mucus layer. These bacteria use the formate as an electron donor in the process of making energy. Which is great because the coral animal will see this alkalinity and calcium release right where they may need it. In fact a bonus to all this is that some types of formate utilizing bacteria will also reduce nitrate within the aquarium. So that's something else to consider when using AFR. E.g. may need less carbon dosing or other nitrate reducing schemes to stay at the level you want to achieve.

However don't fear if you don't have a lot of coral because this conversion will also take place anywhere that has low oxygen tension in your tank. So bacteria within the live rock and within the sand bed will also allow for the increase in calcium andalkalinity.

Also a fun fact is that if you use AFR there is a increase in hydrogen gas production within the aquarium. So keep your aquarium away from flames, lol

Also to agree with the above all these bacteria are not in the water column and will not be effected by your UV.

Edited: cleaned up my messaging because I was too blunt in my post, and it read poorly.

@flampton good post. I actually read the original last night and was returning today to re-read the bit on nitrates and noticed the edit and further clarity. Great job.

I never really thought about the nitrate and will be honest that I'm not a chemistry person so don't think of it. However, when you made the comment on nitrates it did connect a dot with my brain in that I have been dealing with cyno lately. And because of that I started to measure for nitrates on a whim. Nyos reported 0. Margin of error. My error. Repeated test, still 0. So dosed a bit and got it back up to 5 ppm while shooting for 10'ish.

Anyway non of that matters but it may or may not be related since I didn't really notice this on my tank prior to dosing AFR. I was using esv two part which was great but wanted to try this. I love making AFR for some dumb reason and coral growth has been noticeable. Visible I should say rather.

I guess what I'm thinking is this (assuming I understand correctly): I need to watch out for nitrates bottoming out possibly by dosing AFR? Because so far I now need to add about 30 ml of nitrates per week and it may or may not be related

TL; DR - I found the post informative regardless

 

[flampton]

@flampton good post. I actually read the original last night and was returning today to re-read the bit on nitrates and noticed the edit and further clarity. Great job.

I never really thought about the nitrate and will be honest that I'm not a chemistry person so don't think of it. However, when you made the comment on nitrates it did connect a dot with my brain in that I have been dealing with cyno lately. And because of that I started to measure for nitrates on a whim. Nyos reported 0. Margin of error. My error. Repeated test, still 0. So dosed a bit and got it back up to 5 ppm while shooting for 10'ish.

Anyway non of that matters but it may or may not be related since I didn't really notice this on my tank prior to dosing AFR. I was using esv two part which was great but wanted to try this. I love making AFR for some dumb reason and coral growth has been noticeable. Visible I should say rather.

I guess what I'm thinking is this (assuming I understand correctly): I need to watch out for nitrates bottoming out possibly by dosing AFR? Because so far I now need to add about 30 ml of nitrates per week and it may or may not be related

TL; DR - I found the post informative regardless

Yes you may have to keep track a bit more on the nitrate front. Though you'll probably find a dose of nitrate that is parallel to your AFR dosing. Then you might be able to test less frequently again.

Here is some bonus to dosing nitrate in this situation too, hypothetically by keeping your nitrates above 0 you're allowing for the product to 'activate' faster as without nitrate you won't have as many types of bacteria available that can utilize the formate. And that by supplying nitrate you'll decrease the odds that the formate will be used by sulfate reducing bacteria to reduce sulfate to hydrogen sulfide. Which we want to limit.

tldr: I'd keep the nitrate dosing look for stability at a point and I think you'll see other benefits to getting nitrates up a little as well

 

[User1]

Yes you may have to keep track a bit more on the nitrate front. Though you'll probably find a dose of nitrate that is parallel to your AFR dosing. Then you might be able to test less frequently again.

Here is some bonus to dosing nitrate in this situation too, hypothetically by keeping your nitrates above 0 you're allowing for the product to 'activate' faster as without nitrate you won't have as many types of bacteria available that can utilize the formate. And that by supplying nitrate you'll decrease the odds that the formate will be used by sulfate reducing bacteria to reduce sulfate to hydrogen sulfide. Which we want to limit.

tldr: I'd keep the nitrate dosing look for stability at a point and I think you'll see other benefits to getting nitrates up a little as well

Thanks. I will and appreciate the reply. Learned something new.