Ammonia as route cause to all nuisance in the hobby.

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I dosed ammonium chloride while I deal with dino (large cell amphidinium) and continue to dose now for nitrogen supplementation. From my observation, it does not trigger any negative effect.
Is ammonium chloride the only product that you dosing? And also important is are your nutrients detectable now? The effect on the nuisance will depend of several factors normally only the beneficial bacteria gets affected by some sort of limitations, dosing ammonia doesn’t automatically redirect it to the dinoflagellates
 

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Is ammonium chloride the only product that you dosing? And also important is are your nutrients detectable now? The effect on the nuisance will depend of several factors normally only the beneficial bacteria gets affected by some sort of limitations, dosing ammonia doesn’t automatically redirect it to the dinoflagellates
For nitrogen, I dose a mixture of calcium nitrate and ammonium chloride. My nutrients has been detectable before, during and after my episode of dino outbreak. baseline nitrate is 2ppm (+-1ppm) and phosphate of 0.02 (+-0.01ppm). During outbreak, I dose to increase nitrate to 5ppm.

Dosing if ammonium chloride barely moved nitrate concentration. This is sensible because over dosing of ammonium can increase free ammonia and lead to toxicity. It's also good to note that these ammonium are probably directly and rapidly consumed by corals and clams, instead of going through nitrification.

I have seen aquarium with dino outbreaks with zero/low/high nutrients. So I would think inorganic salt is not the culprit when it comes to nuisance algae.
 
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Interesting. Then the next question is if ozone will be a suitable treatment for nuisance algae as it is a good oxidizer of ammonia and nitrite.
Im not versed in how ozone or hydrogen peroxide oxidise ammonia unfortunately, it will depend greatly on the results of the reaction, they should aid in the reduction of blooms as any other product depending on the chemical reaction. I know bacteria is effective as they can process ammonia into nitrates that are much harder for this species to assimilate in comparison to ammonia.
 
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For nitrogen, I dose a mixture of calcium nitrate and ammonium chloride. My nutrients has been detectable before, during and after my episode of dino outbreak. baseline nitrate is 2ppm (+-1ppm) and phosphate of 0.02 (+-0.01ppm). During outbreak, I dose to increase nitrate to 5ppm.

this is what I mean, ammonia in not big issue as long as the system is not limited by any of the 3 major nutrients. have you considered stopping dosing ammonium chloride

Dosing if ammonium chloride barely moved nitrate concentration. This is sensible because over dosing of ammonium can increase free ammonia and lead to toxicity. It's also good to note that these ammonium are probably directly and rapidly consumed by corals and clams, instead of going through nitrification.

I fully agree with you, most photosynthetic organisms will thrive on ammonium and dinoflagellates that are a species of phytoplankton is no different. They will also be using some of that extra ammonia.

I have seen aquarium with dino outbreaks with zero/low/high nutrients. So I would think inorganic salt is not the culprit when it comes to nuisance algae.

I would disagree, changing foods or a large snail dying can affect the amount of ammonia being produced in a system, wether we have detectable nutrients or not. From some work we done in the past on this forum, nitrifying bacteria needs 24 hours to be able to divide and grow to be able to process the new levels of ammonia, depending on the new levels of ammonia being produced the timescale can increase for more than 24 hours . This leaves plenty of time for nuisance to take advantage of the excess being produced during high nutrients.
many folks connected overfeeding with Cyanobacteria and increased algae growth, for the same reason above, the system didn’t had enough time to deal with the increase ammonia.
volume will also play a big role into this as more water volume and pelagic bacteria will minimise the issue at hand.
In addition there is a big difference between pellet food and frozen food, it’s not uncommon for folks to change from frozen to pellets as going on holiday and return to a really messy tank, this is due to pellets release more ammonia than frozen and not giving enough time for the beneficial bacteria to adjust to the new levels being produced.
 

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Have never feared ammonium since I started using more media than needed. This goes back to the 70s. Don’t fear it now with 25% of my volume dedicated to biological media. I overfeed and I overdose carbon. Bottom my nitrates out but confident that overfeeding provides a constant flow of ammonium.

Because this is a test tank I often stop dosing carbon and let nuisance algae take hold then confirm carbon gets rid of it less some persistent turf algae that grows directly under the Kessil. Yet that’s not much of an issue and easily solved.

Have not tried this overriding of carbon with corals other than a sacrificial Xenia just to ensure there aren’t any metals leached by a faulty motor. That’s doing fine but can’t go off of that since those I’m told can live in toilets.

Going to be adding some soft corals and expand this testing. Won’t be worried about ammonia, however.
 
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Have never feared ammonium since I started using more media than needed. This goes back to the 70s. Don’t fear it now with 25% of my volume dedicated to biological media. I overfeed and I overdose carbon. Bottom my nitrates out but confident that overfeeding provides a constant flow of ammonium.

Because this is a test tank I often stop dosing carbon and let nuisance algae take hold then confirm carbon gets rid of it less some persistent turf algae that grows directly under the Kessil. Yet that’s not much of an issue and easily solved.

Have not tried this overriding of carbon with corals other than a sacrificial Xenia just to ensure there aren’t any metals leached by a faulty motor. That’s doing fine but can’t go off of that since those I’m told can live in toilets.

Going to be adding some soft corals and expand this testing. Won’t be worried about ammonia, however.

with all the dissolved organic carbon you mentioned that you dose it doesn’t surprise me that ammonia is not something you fear :) although is interesting that algae starts growing once you stop the carbon dosing this will mean that once heterotrophic bacteria becomes limited in DOC to grow and divide nitrifying autotrophic bacteria can’t pick up the slack instantly allowing algae to assimilate the ammonia instead.
 

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I would disagree, changing foods or a large snail dying can affect the amount of ammonia being produced in a system, wether we have detectable nutrients or not. From some work we done in the past on this forum, nitrifying bacteria needs 24 hours to be able to divide and grow to be able to process the new levels of ammonia, depending on the new levels of ammonia being produced the timescale can increase for more than 24 hours . This leaves plenty of time for nuisance to take advantage of the excess being produced during high nutrients.
This may be true in some aquarium. It could just as likely that other (desirable) organisms rapidly utilize these available nutrients.

have you considered stopping dosing ammonium chloride
I wouldn't. In fact I would probably increase the dosage as coral grows. For a simple reason, these nitrogen is well utilised by my corals and clams. The reason to incorporate ammonium chloride is that ammonium is easier for corals to use.
 
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This may be true in some aquarium. It could just as likely that other (desirable) organisms rapidly utilize these available nutrients.
Absolutely, in a mature system we will have plenty of good photosynthetic organism growing all over the system that could easily pick up the slack from the extra ammonia, on a fairly new system that contains the dinoflagellates cell and just clean rocks the outcome is guaranteed to bloom, folks often disregard that biodiversity is not just bacteria, there is many beneficial organisms that cover the rocks including coraline algae that will be beneficial in this situations.
In addition we often see this problems occur in the beginning of their life wile the system is still maturing, it’s fairly rare to see any mature system suffering from nuisances due to so many diverse beneficial organisms competing for ammonia.
I wouldn't. In fact I would probably increase the dosage as coral grows. For a simple reason, these nitrogen is well utilised by my corals and clams. The reason to incorporate ammonium chloride is that ammonium is easier for corals to use.


apologies I wasn’t referring as excluding it altogether, just during your dinoflagellates battle. I to am a advocate in dosing ammonium and other sources of nitrogen to promote coral and desirable organisms growth.
Many brands have full range of products for this purpose and the responsible ones always mention not to use them in new systems.
 
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with all the dissolved organic carbon you mentioned that you dose it doesn’t surprise me that ammonia is not something you fear :) although is interesting that algae starts growing once you stop the carbon dosing this will mean that once heterotrophic bacteria becomes limited in DOC to grow and divide nitrifying autotrophic bacteria can’t pick up the slack instantly allowing algae to assimilate the ammonia instead.
That's deeper in the woods than I venture. My best guess being that algae being always present become top predators when left to their own. Saw this with FW tests when enough plants were added to out compete single cell algae as well as GHA. They disappeared. Could be same with autotrophs as you mentioned or could be that algae are tasking advantage of the excess nitrates not being removed by heterotrophs. I tend to believe the latter.

Rarely ever test for ammonia or nitrites since I stopped the FW tests therefore don't know their balance when carbon dosing is removed. Would assume my media bed is still functioning. Irrelevant of carbon introduced.
 

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Oh I chose to go for ammonium chloride because they supply what the corals need, just wanting to make it easier for corals to take up nitrogen.
Saw that mentioned the other day and makes sense. Might be that dosing nitrates was going in the correct direction but not far enough of a start. Nitrogen being the need and ammonium being the best source to get everything started plus plants and other photosynthetic organisms tend to prefer ammonium otherwise having to down convert nitrates to it.
 
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That's deeper in the woods than I venture. My best guess being that algae being always present become top predators when left to their own. Saw this with FW tests when enough plants were added to out compete single cell algae as well as GHA. They disappeared. Could be same with autotrophs as you mentioned or could be that algae are tasking advantage of the excess nitrates not being removed by heterotrophs. I tend to believe the latter.
The same happens in reefing, it’s fairly common to add algae beds to outcompete GHA, often with a stronger lighting that the DT will be enough to redirect the nutrients from GHA to a more desirable algae that will assimilate ammonia through photosynthesis

Rarely ever test for ammonia or nitrites since I stopped the FW tests therefore don't know their balance when carbon dosing is removed. Would assume my media bed is still functioning. Irrelevant of carbon introduced.
The bacteria in the media is still functional just not at his full potential, it will need time to adjust to the new levels of ammonia. This is due to the heterotrophic bacteria that was being stimulated for growth and division by etanol or acetic acid becomes limited by reducing the dose or stop dosing. The gap between the ammonia that was being oxidised by heterotrophic bacteria and the time that it takes for the nitrifying bacteria to grow and divide will be were the system becomes more susceptible at allowing nuisance to develop if present in the system, a way to reduce this risk is by dosing carbohydrates to the system following stoping the acetic acid or ethanol this that will give the nitrifying autotrophic bacteria a source of carbon to stimulate a rapid growth not allowing ammonia levels to raise.
 

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The same happens in reefing, it’s fairly common to add algae beds to outcompete GHA, often with a stronger lighting that the DT will be enough to redirect the nutrients from GHA to a more desirable algae that will assimilate ammonia through photosynthesis


The bacteria in the media is still functional just not at his full potential, it will need time to adjust to the new levels of ammonia. This is due to the heterotrophic bacteria that was being stimulated for growth and division by etanol or acetic acid becomes limited by reducing the dose or stop dosing. The gap between the ammonia that was being oxidised by heterotrophic bacteria and the time that it takes for the nitrifying bacteria to grow and divide will be were the system becomes more susceptible at allowing nuisance to develop if present in the system, a way to reduce this risk is by dosing carbohydrates to the system following stoping the acetic acid or ethanol this that will give the nitrifying autotrophic bacteria a source of carbon to stimulate a rapid growth not allowing ammonia levels to raise.
Familiar with algal turf scrubbers or refugiums and what lead me to test this in FW but how do you dose carbs? Not following you on why autotrophs need carbon. My understanding, that's purely a heterotroph need and detritus often forms that source which could contain carbs along with other nutrients based on composition.

I consider myself somewhat knowledgeable as to decomposition and have never heard of autotrophs needing sugars to oxidize ammonium/nitrites.
 
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Familiar with algal turf scrubbers or refugiums and what lead me to test this in FW but how do you dose carbs? Not following you on why autotrophs need carbon. My understanding, that's purely a heterotroph need and detritus often forms that source which could contain carbs along with other nutrients based on composition.

I consider myself somewhat knowledgeable as to decomposition and have never heard of autotrophs needing sugars to oxidize ammonium/nitrites.
I know how it may sound although carbohydrates are a natural occurrence in the sea, normally from decomposing sea weed or phytoplankton. Small boost from this carbon source is mimicking the sea in a way.
 

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I know how it may sound although carbohydrates are a natural occurrence in the sea, normally from decomposing sea weed or phytoplankton. Small boost from this carbon source is mimicking the sea in a way.
That's news to me and good to learn something new daily. Thanks
 
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That's news to me and good to learn something new daily. Thanks
I believe the triton method advocated for this, if I’m not wrong in the Refugium method.
 
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And this is really really true and important!!
Wend I think of biodiversity this is what I mean

 

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I am not sure about this. Recently I had really bad cyano in my tank. The root cause was killing a bunch of mushrooms revealing bare rock. There is no way the tank can't process the ammount of ammonia because it is very lightly stocked and many years old. I have also seen cyano grow in my tank that had nothing but macroalgae frags. It grew because there was cyano already on the rocks I moved into there.
 
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I am not sure about this. Recently I had really bad cyano in my tank. The root cause was killing a bunch of mushrooms revealing bare rock. There is no way the tank can't process the ammount of ammonia because it is very lightly stocked and many years old. I have also seen cyano grow in my tank that had nothing but macroalgae frags. It grew because there was cyano already on the rocks I moved into there.

this is what most of us still believe, @MnFish1 has a nice mature tank, I believe last year me and a few fellow reefer including Mnfish1 done a lot of work on nitrifying bacteria. One of the test was to remove a piece of mature live rock and transfer it to a new tank to analyse the ammonia performance of live rock. In that test we adde 2 ppm of ammonia to the live rock and to my surprise it took 4 days I believe for the live rock to transform that ammonia into nitrates. @MNFish could you share the results of the test you done?
His test illustrate that our system can’t deal straight away with increasing ammonia levels. I’m here to show my side of the debate I will expect many to disagree with me although all the evidence is in front of us.
Was not the macro algae tank new wend you had the macro algaes and Cyanobacteria issue? I had a similar event in the past although I was already in the suspicion that my tank wasn’t fully ready to deal with increased ammonia.
 

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