Ammonia as route cause to all nuisance in the hobby.

[Timfish]

I’m not familiar with this papers, I’ve read other paper from Feldman, from a quick read Feldman is not saying that all carbon dosing is the reason for coral degradation, he mentioned the carbohydrates produced by zooxanthellae potentially being a source of DOC for bad bacteria like vibrio (not something we observe often in the hobby). He also mentions a hypothesis on how carbon dosing can kill in aquaria although reasons are unknown apparently. . . .

Feldman is where I got started. His articles seemed a bit basic to me and I was very curious as what I had seen in my systems the previous 2 decades didn't jive with the notion that high nutrients directly cause algae issues or coral problems. Stumbling across the Northern Line Islands work by Rohwer and company led to Kline, et all, paper (confirming what I had observed) led to Rohwer's book and subsequntly to additional research being done in hte last decade.

One of the ways labile DOC, aka carbon dosing, kills corals is by allowing heterotrophic bacteria in coral holobionts to utilize the refractory DOC to grow potentially causing disease or suffocating corals

 

[sixty_reefer]

Feldman is where I got started. His articles seemed a bit basic to me and I was very curious as what I had seen in my systems the previous 2 decades didn't jive with the notion that high nutrients directly cause algae issues or coral problems. Stumbling across the Northern Line Islands work by Rohwer and company led to Kline, et all, paper (confirming what I had observed) led to Rohwer's book and subsequntly to additional research being done in hte last decade.

One of the ways labile DOC, aka carbon dosing, kills corals is by allowing heterotrophic bacteria in coral holobionts to utilize the refractory DOC to grow potentially causing disease or suffocating corals

Would the heterotrophic bacteria be there due to depletion of DOC in the water column and looking for it elsewhere? All our systems need heterotrophic bacteria to deal with carbohydrates that are added by feeding the fish, we can’t feed our fish without adding DOC, it’s just part of how everything is connected and the reason over time heterotrophic bacteria becomes the most dominant species in our system. DOC will always play a big role in the overall balance

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Sounds good. But how are you monitoring shift in coral microbiomes? Especially when diseases can be well established long befor there's changes in apperance?

As far as carbon dosing just now killing corals a lot of the research was done in the mid 2000s. It's just been ignored for awhile.

I monitor shifts with my EYES, calibrated of course. Thousands of people carbon dose their tanks and most of the time they look way better than tanks not carbon dosed. I don't quite understand how dying coral will grow. Im sure there may be some truth to what you say, but I'm not sure what it is.

 

[Lasse]

DOC stand for dissolved organic carbon. Carbohydrates dissolved in water is a part of the DOC pool. Sugar is another name for some carbohydrates. Sugar is the main products from the photosynthesis in algae including zooxanthella. Sugar is an important energy source for corals. DOC in form of sugar is transported from the zooxanthella to the coral animal that use this as an energy source for calcification in the stony corals.

IMO - to state that DOC in general kill corals is a false statement - its the same as to say that fruit always smell like Durian and smell awfull

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Timfish]

. . . I don't quite understand how dying coral will grow. . .

Sadly, kids with cystic fibrosis are a good example of this. Substantially altered lung microbiomes are one of the factors these children have to deal with.

I monitor shifts with my EYES, calibrated of course. Thousands of people carbon dose their tanks and most of the time they look way better than tanks not carbon dosed. . .

But your eyes can't see shifts in microbiomes which can occure weeks to months before disease becomes apparent. I am well aware people strive for bright colors and it's a major selling point for corals. Unfortunately bright colors can't be used as an indicator of a healhty coral or system. As flourescing and chromo proteins are made by corals to deal with less than ideal light conditions, antioxidants to deal with excess free radicals from photosynthesis and are used to deal with parasites bright colors may be more likely an indicator of a stressed coral than a healthy coral.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Sadly, kids with cystic fibrosis are a good example of this. Substantially altered lung microbiomes are one of the factors these children have to deal with.



But your eyes can't see shifts in microbiomes which can occure weeks to months before disease becomes apparent. I am well aware people strive for bright colors and it's a major selling point for corals. Unfortunately bright colors can't be used as an indicator of a healhty coral or system. As flourescing and chromo proteins are made by corals to deal with less than ideal light conditions, antioxidants to deal with excess free radicals from photosynthesis and are used to deal with parasites bright colors may be more likely an indicator of a stressed coral than a healthy coral.

I can understand some of what you are saying. My corals are very dark and rich in color even though I carbon dose. In fact Im still tweaking to try to get them a little lighter. So far carbon dosing has not been the determining factor in this at least not for me yet.

 

[Lasse]

But your eyes can't see shifts in microbiomes which can occure weeks to months before disease becomes apparent. I am well aware people strive for bright colors and it's a major selling point for corals. Unfortunately bright colors can't be used as an indicator of a healhty coral or system. As flourescing and chromo proteins are made by corals to deal with less than ideal light conditions, antioxidants to deal with excess free radicals from photosynthesis and are used to deal with parasites bright colors may be more likely an indicator of a stressed coral than a healthy coral.

I totally agree with this - but its a different discussion.

In an earlier post you state that´s we can´t analyse DOC and organic carbon. That´s not total right because tritons N-DOC test is a useful tool in this case. It give you TOC and TIC in the water

Sincerely Lasse

 

[GARRIGA]

In an earlier post you state that´s we can´t analyse DOC and organic carbon. That´s not total right because tritons N-DOC test is a useful tool in this case. It give you TOC and TIC in the water

Sincerely Lasse

Amazing how far we've come in testing.

 

[Dburr1014]

Amazing how far we've come in testing.

And how much more we don't know.

 

[sixty_reefer]

And how much more we don't know.

keeps the hobby interesting, who would know that ammonia could be the route cause of so many issues and at the same time a key nutrient to stimulate coral growth. We don’t pay much attention to it past establishing the nitrogen cycle and never question who’s using it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

who would know that ammonia could be the route cause of so many issues

I'm still waiting for evidence that it is. lol

 

[sixty_reefer]

I'm still waiting for evidence that it is. lol

Already in the making

72h cycle and avoiding the ugly stage

Some of you may have noticed that of late I have been fairly interested in nutrients and nutrition and how all this affect our systems, in this thread I will be attempting to cycle a system in 72 hours or less and demonstrate how the understanding of nutrients can avoid the ugly stage all...

www.reef2reef.com

I thought debating the idea would create more ideas for the testing.
Will share some observations and results in this thread if any interest

 

[djf91]

I think @sixty_reefer could be on to something with his theory about ammonia.

I’ll add my experience. I’ve been dealing with, for the past 18 months, a roller coaster of nuisance algae/bacteria. Tank was started with 80% dry rock, and I delt with GHA, cyano, Lyngbya for the first 9 months until finally a number of things combined helped me get the upper hand on it all. (continually adding snails to aid in fighting the nuisance and then those snails dying shortly after being added I’m sure prolonged this mess). I was then nuisance free for probly about 3 months until I added a refugium with Fiji mud to the system to add biodiversity. And slowly the nuisances came back. I implemented all of the old husbandry techniques I had used in the past to beat it but to no avail. I have now removed all of the Fiji mud from the system. Things appear to be looking better but still not perfect.

About 2 weeks ago I added 200 cerith snails to aid in algae control, but because of the cold weather about 80 of them didn’t make it. I believe this added a ton of ammonia to the system (here I am shooting myself in the foot again). The days following the snail deaths I saw a huge increase in GHA and Lyngbya. Also the corraline on the back glass seemed to have fully bleached. I don’t think corraline can handle large inputs of ammonia.

Im continuing to make small progress on the GHA every day but Lyngbya is just one tough nut to crack. Any irregularity in the system and it comes right back.

After 18 months I’d expect to see mature rock but it’s still not quite there. I think ammonia in a young tank is handled a whole lot differently than ammonia in a mature tank. Maturing rock to resemble what we used to harvest from the ocean takes a very long time.

Just my .02 on the whole scenario.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I think @sixty_reefer could be on to something with his theory about ammonia.

I’ll add my experience. I’ve been dealing with, for the past 18 months, a roller coaster of nuisance algae/bacteria. Tank was started with 80% dry rock, and I delt with GHA, cyano, Lyngbya for the first 9 months until finally a number of things combined helped me get the upper hand on it all. (continually adding snails to aid in fighting the nuisance and then those snails dying shortly after being added I’m sure prolonged this mess). I was then nuisance free for probly about 3 months until I added a refugium with Fiji mud to the system to add biodiversity. And slowly the nuisances came back. I implemented all of the old husbandry techniques I had used in the past to beat it but to no avail. I have now removed all of the Fiji mud from the system. Things appear to be looking better but still not perfect.

About 2 weeks ago I added 200 cerith snails to aid in algae control, but because of the cold weather about 80 of them didn’t make it. I believe this added a ton of ammonia to the system (here I am shooting myself in the foot again). The days following the snail deaths I saw a huge increase in GHA and Lyngbya. Also the corraline on the back glass seemed to have fully bleached. I don’t think corraline can handle large inputs of ammonia.

Im continuing to make small progress on the GHA every day but Lyngbya is just one tough nut to crack. Any irregularity in the system and it comes right back.

After 18 months I’d expect to see mature rock but it’s still not quite there. I think ammonia in a young tank is handled a whole lot differently than ammonia in a mature tank. Maturing rock to resemble what we used to harvest from the ocean takes a very long time.

Just my .02 on the whole scenario.

I would hope that in a few years from now we could understand the ammonia cycle in our system much better and avoid those same issues you had, to aid future members of the forum having a much easier and more rewarding journey.
To me the ammonia cycle starts with diatoms the more severe they are the more ammonia will be available for the next nuisance once they become limited by silica, I strongly believe we can avoid this by practicing good nutrition towards the heterotrophic bacteria, acknowledging that they are directly affected by the same is only half the story, diversity doesn’t mean much if we keep ignoring that beneficial bacteria has also strict nutrition requirements, after all the are heterotrophic just like me and you. Instead of bacteria diversity we need to look at giving the bacteria the foods they require to be able to assimilate ammonia and other pollutants from our systems.

 

[GARRIGA]

I would hope that in a few years from now we could understand the ammonia cycle in our system much better and avoid those same issues you had, to aid future members of the forum having a much easier and more rewarding journey.
To me the ammonia cycle starts with diatoms the more severe they are the more ammonia will be available for the next nuisance once they become limited by silica, I strongly believe we can avoid this by practicing good nutrition towards the heterotrophic bacteria, acknowledging that they are directly affected by the same is only half the story, diversity doesn’t mean much if we keep ignoring that beneficial bacteria has also strict nutrition requirements, after all the are heterotrophic just like me and you. Instead of bacteria diversity we need to look at giving the bacteria the foods they require to be able to assimilate ammonia and other pollutants from our systems.

Doesn't feeding heterotrophs start with food fed since what one craps is directly related to what one takes in? Perhaps better diversified diets the easiest path to getting all properly fed including heterotroph bacteria.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Doesn't feeding heterotrophs start with food fed since what one craps is directly related to what one takes in? Perhaps better diversified diets the easiest path to getting all properly fed including heterotroph bacteria.

Giving that all organisms contain carbohydrates, yes. That’s how heterotrophic bacteria starts to dominate the nitrogen cycle over autotrophic and the only source of DOC to many systems. One aspect to take note is that not all foods contain carbohydrates in the ratio needed to balance the import export of pollutants in a system this is were ammonia levels rise and other organisms take hold of the ammonia commonly at the start of a system were there isn’t many beneficial autotrophic organisms to deal with it. Ammonia is not always bad, once the system is established and many beneficial autotrophic present ammonia rise will be desired to aid they’re growth. This is why the parameters of a mature system often only generate issues in a tank still maturing.

 

[ReefGeezer]

i need to ask a dumb question... Do heterotrophic bacteria uptake ammonia directly or simply uptake nitrogen as part of the organic carbon they use?

 

[sixty_reefer]

i need to ask a dumb question... Do heterotrophic bacteria uptake ammonia directly or simply uptake nitrogen as part of the organic carbon they use?

Both I believe

Heterotrophic nitrification – An eternal mystery in the nitrogen cycle

Despite the fact that heterotrophic nitrification was identified more than 100 years ago, the biochemistry of heterotrophic nitrifiers is poorly known…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

i need to ask a dumb question... Do heterotrophic bacteria uptake ammonia directly or simply uptake nitrogen as part of the organic carbon they use?

Depends on the organic, but naturally existing organics will have more nitrogen, on average, than they need.

If you dose organics without nitrogen (such as vodka or vinegar), then they must take up N somehow else.

 

[TokenReefer]

How does ammonia gets into synthetic sea salt mixes? Is it added purposefully?