Ammonia in INSTANT OCEAN REEF CRYSTALS

[allsite]

First off, I'll just say I'm one sad fish dad. One by one my fish and corals are dying. It's my first reef and my 5 fish were buddies for 2 years. Not a single death until this week.

INSTANT OCEAN REEF CRYSTALS crashed my reef with ammonia. I didn't believe it at first but the tests feel conclusive.

The picture with 2 tubes:
Left: RODI+salt mix (from a pitcher of water with a drop of AmmoLock)
Right: RODI+salt mix

The picture with 1 tube:
Just RODI

Is it in my bucket? Nope, I tested it with a clean pitcher, exact same result. Nothing else touches the water prior to testing.

I have 2 boxes of mix that were ordered several months apart. One brand new, the other about 4 months old. They BOTH produced the same result (as seen in the pic).

All of the tests were done to water that was tank-ready, salinity and temp on par. I'm happy I didn't dump it into the tank but that also mean I'm just letting it die until I get new salt first thing tomorrow. I really hope AmmoLock and bacteria additives can save what little is left (1 clown and a few frags).

My tank is currently testing better than the right tube and worse than the left (forgot to take a photo but it's somewhat irrelevant in this thread).

My question is, how is it possible INSTANT OCEAN REEF CRYSTALS could produce 0.7ppm ammonia seawater? They're just selling poison? Is that not the point when doing a water change, to remove bad stuff while introducing good stuff?

It was traumatic to watch it crash after enjoying it to the max, stuck in a small apartment downtown during a pandemic. However I realize other reefers have incurred much bigger losses and my heart goes out to anyone who has to go through it.

 

[allsite]

Glad this isn’t a 110 gallon those are hard work to tame, a nano is easy. Look how cook just whip cleaned his big reef into shape, no delay no fanfare:

Build Thread - Cook's 105 Planet Aquariums Crystaline Reef - 48x20

Thanks for the information it a good summary for reference without having to read through the big post. I couldn't read you replies though, I was too busy taking the tank apart. :) I didn't just go for it first thing, I had tested the GHA removal method several months with good results. The...

www.reef2reef.com

why this applies to current thread: after verifying basic reef params, that’s how to restart a tank without losing anything, new saltwater isn’t bad we can see. Cook adhered to the light ramping part that was crucial.

notice how little room for customization the plan allows, a full water change without cleaning sand would be opposite from that thread, a certain way of cleaning sand was used that should be a big hit here


it’s a big commitment for large tankers that’s for sure. Cook was resolved big time.

There's good info here but as a beginner it's really hard to decipher. Many abbreviations and assumed theory that I'm just not familiar with. Separating the livestock, new water, lowering lights... Can you please help me understand it so I can take action?

 

[Adamantium]

That tank is 2 years old? Why is there little, to no, coraline? Do you scrape the back glass?

 

[allsite]

That tank is 2 years old? Why is there little, to no, coraline? Do you scrape the back glass?

I have also wondered this. I went through the usual cycle of diatoms, red algae, green algae, cyano but never got much coraline. Yes I scrape the glass because that's the look I'm going for, not that it looks like much right now.

 

[Suohhen]

There's good info here but as a beginner it's really hard to decipher. Many abbreviations and assumed theory that I'm just not familiar with. Separating the livestock, new water, lowering lights... Can you please help me understand it so I can take action?

Sorry I don't see a reference to separating livestock but the reference to new water is that your tank could very well benefit from some hefty water changes but you need to know what your parameters are so that it isn't too big a shock to your system, especially the majors such as salinity, alk, cal, mag, temperature. The part about lighting is that overlighting can stress and kill coral. Coral that is stressed is much easier to overlight. Increasing light output too quickly can stress coral. So generally it is best to know how much par each of your corals is receiving and in absence of a par test you can deduce basic logic from how corals look and react to placement in various areas. It is also possible to find par test results online for various products. From this information add your observations in the moment. If the coral isn't opening or is bleaching get it into a spot with less light. The algae in coral only needs about 100par to thrive. That is very easy to achieve in an aquarium. However most of the coral we keep in this hobby is adapted to much higher light by containing strong pigments. Much like being very tan can protect you from the sun. If your coral is pale or otherwise adapted to lower light it can become "burned" very easily.
Coraline likes stability, needs calcium and alkalinity and needs enough like, can handle a lot of light but doesn't like sudden changes in light just like coral but generally more sensitive than a lot of coral. In other words it is a good Canary in the hard coral mine.

 

[MnFish1]

I read this and see a bunch of criticism of others and at the part where you actually help, you seem to just chalk it up as “super obvious”, then omit the information that follows which could hopefully set me on the right track and save whats left. Please share your knowledge or leave room for someone else. Thanks.

Well.....

First off, I'll just say I'm one sad fish dad. One by one my fish and corals are dying. It's my first reef and my 5 fish were buddies for 2 years. Not a single death until this week.

INSTANT OCEAN REEF CRYSTALS crashed my reef with ammonia. I didn't believe it at first but the tests feel conclusive.

The picture with 2 tubes:
Left: RODI+salt mix (from a pitcher of water with a drop of AmmoLock)
Right: RODI+salt mix

The picture with 1 tube:
Just RODI

Is it in my bucket? Nope, I tested it with a clean pitcher, exact same result. Nothing else touches the water prior to testing.

I have 2 boxes of mix that were ordered several months apart. One brand new, the other about 4 months old. They BOTH produced the same result (as seen in the pic).

All of the tests were done to water that was tank-ready, salinity and temp on par. I'm happy I didn't dump it into the tank but that also mean I'm just letting it die until I get new salt first thing tomorrow. I really hope AmmoLock and bacteria additives can save what little is left (1 clown and a few frags).

My tank is currently testing better than the right tube and worse than the left (forgot to take a photo but it's somewhat irrelevant in this thread).

My question is, how is it possible INSTANT OCEAN REEF CRYSTALS could produce 0.7ppm ammonia seawater? They're just selling poison? Is that not the point when doing a water change, to remove bad stuff while introducing good stuff?

It was traumatic to watch it crash after enjoying it to the max, stuck in a small apartment downtown during a pandemic. However I realize other reefers have incurred much bigger losses and my heart goes out to anyone who has to go through it.

this doesn't make sense. 1. Why the ammo-lock? (it is my understanding that ammolock does not lower the total ammonia, but merely changes it to the non-toxic form (so the test should not be different)? I don't see how you get from 0.7 ammonia in the salt to 4+ ammonia in the tank. Lastly it would be really nice to know how big a tank, etc - I havent read the whole 11 pages - but though ammonia might be a problem - it does not seem to be from the salt?

 

[MnFish1]

What would cause an api test to show clear on his rodi and green on his tank and bucket mix?

There is a different color card for freshwater and saltwater

 

[Malcontent]

I don't see how you get from 0.7 ammonia in the salt to 4+ ammonia in the tank.

Ammo Lock in FW aquariums will sometimes (always?) result in dark green API ammonia tests. I wouldn't be surprised if it interferes in saltwater as well.

 

[allsite]

Well.....

this doesn't make sense. 1. Why the ammo-lock? (it is my understanding that ammolock does not lower the total ammonia, but merely changes it to the non-toxic form (so the test should not be different)? I don't see how you get from 0.7 ammonia in the salt to 4+ ammonia in the tank. Lastly it would be really nice to know how big a tank, etc - I havent read the whole 11 pages - but though ammonia might be a problem - it does not seem to be from the salt?

It definitely doesn't make sense. Ammonia-lock: to prevent harm to livestock while dosing bacteria to clear ammonia. I also don't know how the super high ammonia reading that corresponds with the death of all but one fish happened. Where would that much ammonia come from? I wish I knew. Suspecting the salt was part of looking far and wide for the source. Whatever is happening to my tank, its still happening and the problem is not identified. I hope the better test kits will arrive soon and shed some light. Mind boggling...

 

[MnFish1]

I appreciate all the responses. The part I’m hung up on is how I could get an maxed out ammonia reading and lose fish, yet not have an ammonia problem. I’m basically calming down about the faint green tint, but that forest green...

I disagree with Brandon - to a degree. But - in general - I think your tests are off. Though ammonia is 'toxic', certain snails, etc do ok with higher levels for a period of time (think a tide pool in the sun with no flow for hours in a day - with algae dying, etc. I.e. some organisms (especially more shore - based) can have a longer/higher tolerance to ammonia. I think you're missing your original question/statement - that the salt was to blame - I do not think it is - and I think this is where you're missing what some people are trying to tell you. If a fish dies (or something)in a tank - that alone can cause an ammonia spike - which causes a cascading effect. If I had to guess - I would think this is a disease, causing a death - and a cascade which has affected most of the stuff in your tank. The salt to me - is a 'red herring' (no pun intended). I'm sorry for your tank problems. One question - had you used this particular box/batch of salt before?

 

[allsite]

I disagree with Brandon - to a degree. But - in general - I think your tests are off. Though ammonia is 'toxic', certain snails, etc do ok with higher levels for a period of time (think a tide pool in the sun with no flow for hours in a day - with algae dying, etc. I.e. some organisms (especially more shore - based) can have a longer/higher tolerance to ammonia. I think you're missing your original question/statement - that the salt was to blame - I do not think it is - and I think this is where you're missing what some people are trying to tell you. If a fish dies (or something)in a tank - that alone can cause an ammonia spike - which causes a cascading effect. If I had to guess - I would think this is a disease, causing a death - and a cascade which has affected most of the stuff in your tank. The salt to me - is a 'red herring' (no pun intended). I'm sorry for your tank problems. One question - had you used this particular box/batch of salt before?

I don't disagree with this. The API test kit is very misleading, especially after you've dosed Prime/Ammo lock. It's a slippery slope especially for inexperienced reefers like myself. I've never had a tank go south on me, ever. Now that I only have one fish you'd think the biofilter would be processing the ammonia without skipping a beat. So I'm still dosing Prime and changing water, but I'm not convinced ammonia is the problem.

Would disease affect the corals AND fish AND snails? Do you think I should dose ParaGuard or Melafix?

PS. I regret not taking pics of the dead fish, but I can tell you the tang had lesions on the middle of its body and had began losing color for maybe a week prior to the disaster. The others looked better, but not great because they were not alive.

 

[MnFish1]

I've been trying not to post in this thread because I don't want to be part of the arguing but if one of my fish dies I don't remove it from my tank. It is food for my cuc and as already pointed out countless times my tank quickly processes the ammonia.

This is kind of a general comment - that may be a disaster for someone else. 1. it depends on how big the fish that dies is, 2. how big the tank is, 3. How good the filtration is. 4. Whether someone has a CUC in the first place. I think this is extremely poor advice (in general). Now if someone has a 400 gallon tank and a 2 inch wrasse dies great. my guess is that if you accidentally dumped an entire package of frozen food into your 50 gallon tank - and 'just left it for the CUC' - you would have a dead tank in a day or 2

 

[MnFish1]

I don't disagree with this. The API test kit is very misleading, especially after you've dosed Prime/Ammo lock. It's a slippery slope especially for inexperienced reefers like myself. I've never had a tank go south on me, ever. Now that I only have one fish you'd think the biofilter would be processing the ammonia without skipping a beat. So I'm still dosing Prime and changing water, but I'm not convinced ammonia is the problem.

Would disease affect the corals AND fish AND snails? Do you think I should dose ParaGuard or Melafix?

PS. I regret not taking pics of the dead fish, but I can tell you the tang had lesions on the middle of its body and had began losing color for maybe a week prior to the disaster. The others looked better, but not great because they were not alive.

Remember that if you dose 'prime', the ammonia will stay 'high' according to most test kits.

 

[brandon429]

Nice assessments. Good points.

 

[allsite]

Parameters are all good according to the cheap kits I have on hand, expect ammonia obviously. New kits will be here any day, hopefully tomorrow. Is there anything else I can do besides change water? Should I dose the tank with ParaGuard? Any other ideas?

 

[MnFish1]

I don't disagree with this. The API test kit is very misleading, especially after you've dosed Prime/Ammo lock. It's a slippery slope especially for inexperienced reefers like myself. I've never had a tank go south on me, ever. Now that I only have one fish you'd think the biofilter would be processing the ammonia without skipping a beat. So I'm still dosing Prime and changing water, but I'm not convinced ammonia is the problem.

Would disease affect the corals AND fish AND snails? Do you think I should dose ParaGuard or Melafix?

PS. I regret not taking pics of the dead fish, but I can tell you the tang had lesions on the middle of its body and had began losing color for maybe a week prior to the disaster. The others looked better, but not great because they were not alive.

I don't know what the best step for you 'now' - except perhaps to move the fish to a QT tank and treat based on what one of the fish disease experts think. The fact that your fish were somewhat 'sick' a week ago suggests another piece of evidence that ammonia (in the salt) was not the cause. Sorry if this isn't helpful. Its so hard to go back and ask every single question that 'might have happened'. Its also hard to read multiple comments - Did I read correct that you were using part RODI and part TAP water? As (I think) someone mentioned - in the spring - often water companies add more Chloramine to the water. But if we're talking about 'what to do now', I would continue the carbon, separate the fish (do you have a friend - or LFS or someone that could come look at the fish?) monitor your corals/inverts for 'illness'.

 

[MnFish1]

Parameters are all good according to the cheap kits I have on hand, expect ammonia obviously. New kits will be here any day, hopefully tomorrow. Is there anything else I can do besides change water? Should I dose the tank with ParaGuard? Any other ideas?

PS - fwiw, I have never owned an ammonia test, nor found the need to own one. This may be one reason I'm discounting the ammonia connection a little.

 

[allsite]

I don't know what the best step for you 'now' - except perhaps to move the fish to a QT tank and treat based on what one of the fish disease experts think. The fact that your fish were somewhat 'sick' a week ago suggests another piece of evidence that ammonia (in the salt) was not the cause. Sorry if this isn't helpful. Its so hard to go back and ask every single question that 'might have happened'. Its also hard to read multiple comments - Did I read correct that you were using part RODI and part TAP water? As (I think) someone mentioned - in the spring - often water companies add more Chloramine to the water. But if we're talking about 'what to do now', I would continue the carbon, separate the fish (do you have a friend - or LFS or someone that could come look at the fish?) monitor your corals/inverts for 'illness'.

100% rodi.
I didn't think much of the color change of the one fish because it was so slight and it's behavior was fine. I wasn't even sure it was a change but looking back I'm much more sure.
I have a 12 gallon QT tank and don't have great confidence in the water quality but I may drop the clown in it anyway, perhaps after I change a little water and tests. It's a good suggestion.

 

[Gtinnel]

This is kind of a general comment - that may be a disaster for someone else. 1. it depends on how big the fish that dies is, 2. how big the tank is, 3. How good the filtration is. 4. Whether someone has a CUC in the first place. I think this is extremely poor advice (in general). Now if someone has a 400 gallon tank and a 2 inch wrasse dies great. my guess is that if you accidentally dumped an entire package of frozen food into your 50 gallon tank - and 'just left it for the CUC' - you would have a dead tank in a day or 2

I absolutely agree with you. The reason I replied as I did was because the person who made the comment was not referring to the OP's tank or situation, he said it as a generalized statement. It doesn't help that it was stated in what I took as being very passive aggressive.
Had he said it the way you just did or even close to the way you did I wouldn't have replied.

Also, the statement I made is very much true for my tank. The last time I had a fish die I found out it died because there was a cluster of hermit crabs in one area. The body was gone in a few hours, it was actually quite impressive. It was a relatively small fish though.

 

[MnFish1]

Test your pH. 0.7ppm total ammonia won't kill your fish that quickly or at all. If you did get a ammonia spike you should see a rapid increase in you pH to caustic levels. Thats what kills fish.

1. I think he said his ammonia was 4+ ppm at one point?
2. Why would an ammonia 'spike' cause pH to rise?

 

[MnFish1]

I will step back - as I think I've said enough - but will follow the thread. Just one more piece of advice to the OP (and again - really sorry to have you going through this mess). If you post something about a problem - its might be best to post as complete a history at the start - and then let people give opinions. Sometimes when you start out with 'I have a problem, and I know its 'the salt- or whatever' - it seems to result in these threads where there are 500 different recommendations - which doesnt help you as much. I didnt say this as a criticism - only mentioned it becasue you've said a couple times you are getting tons of seemingly contradictory information. My final piece of advice (as someone else recently said). Slow down, do not do 500 things at once. I just had an alkalinity spike due to a controller problem. My alkalinity went from 7 to 22. Yes - thats right 22. Fish were fine, soft corals were fine. The pH spiked to 9 for about an hour then dropped back to 8.5. All the soft coral look great. lost some huge colonies of SPS - yet others look fine (that were frags of the other). Long story short - I think if I had jumped in with multiple corrective 'things' - I would have caused more problems than I have. Best of luck. It will work out in the end.