Ammonia in INSTANT OCEAN REEF CRYSTALS

BRS

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First off, I'll just say I'm one sad fish dad. One by one my fish and corals are dying. It's my first reef and my 5 fish were buddies for 2 years. Not a single death until this week.

INSTANT OCEAN REEF CRYSTALS crashed my reef with ammonia. I didn't believe it at first but the tests feel conclusive.

The picture with 2 tubes:
Left: RODI+salt mix (from a pitcher of water with a drop of AmmoLock)
Right: RODI+salt mix

The picture with 1 tube:
Just RODI

Is it in my bucket? Nope, I tested it with a clean pitcher, exact same result. Nothing else touches the water prior to testing.

I have 2 boxes of mix that were ordered several months apart. One brand new, the other about 4 months old. They BOTH produced the same result (as seen in the pic).

All of the tests were done to water that was tank-ready, salinity and temp on par. I'm happy I didn't dump it into the tank but that also mean I'm just letting it die until I get new salt first thing tomorrow. I really hope AmmoLock and bacteria additives can save what little is left (1 clown and a few frags).

My tank is currently testing better than the right tube and worse than the left (forgot to take a photo but it's somewhat irrelevant in this thread).

My question is, how is it possible INSTANT OCEAN REEF CRYSTALS could produce 0.7ppm ammonia seawater? They're just selling poison? Is that not the point when doing a water change, to remove bad stuff while introducing good stuff?

It was traumatic to watch it crash after enjoying it to the max, stuck in a small apartment downtown during a pandemic. However I realize other reefers have incurred much bigger losses and my heart goes out to anyone who has to go through it.

168426979_3789554974446868_3184096659993372410_n.png 169469175_943549413142283_754375814307983494_n.png
 

brandon429

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Let the formal record reflect that just the other day when on seneye we confirmed peroxide does not harm filter bac, for the first time in reefing, I wish it had sixteen pages of responses like this thread :) amazing how some threads have such an audience pull, polarization in effect.

nobody cares that peroxide use does not harm filter bac and that thousands of authorities were wrong, you guys could be bumping some really cool threads man. even more fascinating, reefers can see the data for themselves and would still instantly report it harms bacteria anyway, I love you guys.
 
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MnFish1

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Let the formal record reflect that just the other day when on seneye we confirmed peroxide does not harm filter bac, for the first time in reefing, I wish it had sixteen pages of responses like this thread :) amazing how some threads have such an audience pull, polarization in effect.

nobody cares that peroxide use does not harm filter bac and that thousands of authorities were wrong, you guys could be bumping some really cool threads man. even more fascinating, reefers can see the data for themselves and would still instantly report it harms bacteria anyway, I love you guys.
My 'guess' is that most people have not thought peroxide would harm the biofilter at all. Peroxide is fairly quickly degraded into water and oxygen - with some local super oxygen species. In fact - with or without the thread - I would not have considered peroxide an issue.
 
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Garf

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Let the formal record reflect that just the other day when on seneye we confirmed peroxide does not harm filter bac, for the first time in reefing, I wish it had sixteen pages of responses like this thread :) amazing how some threads have such an audience pull, polarization in effect.

nobody cares that peroxide use does not harm filter bac and that thousands of authorities were wrong, you guys could be bumping some really cool threads man. even more fascinating, reefers can see the data for themselves and would still instantly report it harms bacteria anyway, I love you guys.
He never used peroxide, unless you know different?
 
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MnFish1

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He never used peroxide, unless you know different?
I think he was making the point that this thread has 16 pages - but the peroxide one had little interest. My guess its becasue no -one (or very few people) thought peroxide would hurt the biofilter - and lots of people wanted to help the OP here.
 
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brandon429

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by most, if you mean a very select tight nit group of web nerds consisting of you and I, then I agree

let the official record reflect all normally socialized folks think peroxide is antibiotic in reefs and at best merely tolerated :)

Jon found with his superman machine that for a brief instant his nitrification rates increased in efficiency briefly...oxidizers like 02 seems easy now but I assure you there was no greater heresy one could state about reefing in 2011. to even hint that dosing peroxide might help in a brief period, would be an instant ban on all but the most progressive forums.
 
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MnFish1

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by most, if you mean a very select tight nit group of web nerds consisting of you and I, then I agree

let the official record reflect all normally socialized folks think peroxide is antibiotic in reefs and at best merely tolerated :)

Jon found with his superman machine that for a brief instant his nitrification rates increased in efficiency briefly...oxidizers like 02 seems easy now but I assure you there was no greater heresy one could state about reefing in 2011. to even hint that dosing peroxide might help in a brief period, would be an instant ban on all but the most progressive forums.
Its off topic here - but - I think peroxide dosing here has been discussed multiple times. The main issue being - most people don't understand what peroxide is/dose. There are numerous threads on the Sochting oxydator - which is basically H2O2
 
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brandon429

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I just wish seventeen pages of interest was aimed towards that but this thread wins focus of the millennia, irony and well done finding the viral motion op that is not always easy to snare.


not my most fav set of evaluation posts ever made in living history but if it’s destined for a million views and to be the focus on all upcoming blogs and magazine articles, work it then. How do we know a scent candle didn’t cause all of it.
 
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BeltedCoyote

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I just wish seventeen pages of interest was aimed towards that but this thread wins focus of the millennia, irony and well done finding the viral motion op that is not always easy to snare.


not my most fav set of evaluation posts ever made in living history but if it’s destined for a million views and to be the focus on all upcoming blogs and magazine articles, work it then. How do we know a scent candle didn’t cause all of it.

definitely another worm hole to go down but it would be interesting to determine the effects of such things (scented candles, deodorizers, etc). I know for those who keep birds (parrots and the like) such things can be deadly. Can’t help but wonder if they would have similar pejorative effects on a reef.

anyway, questions for later.
 
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brandon429

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i am truly unable to summarize that’s not joke, best attempt:

rocks and sand were moved, removed

fish died

corals accused of dying but look normal whole time

electrical stray voltage was a concern, but I’ve seen no voltmeter data, the snail has lived through all assumed causatives we all agree in unison it’s a roughest toughest snail. Frogspawn frag stays open, toadstool frag stays open through it all as well

ammonia was the concern and still is from nearly all umpires

we don’t know if fish disease factors

cleanest two year old reef on the site was mentioned

the crowd loves this thread more than any thread ever made on a reefing subject


in spite of all this I’ve still never seen in twenty years a post cycle reef tank that couldn’t manage free ammonia for days with no continuing input source


I’ve seen these exact same posted ammonia readings though on perfectly normal tanks on hundreds of misread threads, and we have no digital ammonia measures here to back up anything. we merely have a choice to believe non digital ammonia testing here, but in other threads the crowd will agree api misreads constantly. Assessments are made using the thread title and not the track history of non seneye ammonia tests.


if he would have titled the thread “api says I have free ammonia” then things would have gone five times calmer.
 
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brandon429

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team

that thread has similarities to this one


see the large happy snail, that’s two bulletproof snails in a week and the fish always about to die but not acting like it

another thread where folks fully agree with api.

and then on other posts we tell the aquarist not to trust api

473F86EE-5AC2-4DD0-9369-9AE3DDC7B82A.png


@Azedenkae i have some questions about your assessment there if you’d discuss w me. It’s not to flame this thread here was plenty flameworthy

i want to ask if you will allow for the option of skip cycling in reef tank setups, like when conventions set up hundreds of reefs using live rock transferred over to the convention.

true resolved and assured skip cycles, not the kind that something *may* go wrong in the transfers (nobody has ever backed a skip cycle tank out of macna due to inability to meet the start date, 25 years, all starts on time no fails)


forum posters are not getting that info: that a small portion of cycles are true and for sure skip cycles...its certainly not written about by any authors or cycle scientists so no harm in applying the classic approach its how we all were trained. but web posts and reef conventions seem to get a different set of rules, I bet we can agree on that part.

while the forum cyclers are thinking the skip cycle convention reefs are weak, or about to expire, all along the convention owners trust their cycles to more $ in coral in one tank than any of us will own at any single time in our reefing. see that disparity, it persists and we get the percolate here in forums

So far I’ve never seen the option mentioned, or given to any poster as they’re all subject to wait until api allows the start.

Merely allowing that option for pet store live rock skip cycles will help tremendously to lower confusion for cyclers



there are some kinds of cycles that need literally no help, no delay, and no api testing, how can we identify those types of cycles from troubleshooting posts?

example:

See how in the title he said his reef was eight days old, but in reality the rocks had been underwater years minimum...it means he didn’t have to cycle with bottle bac and by dosing ammonia to see if it goes to full zero in 24 hours / which is indeed what all current cycling materials (and many LFS's) say to do




ammonia troubleshooting is hot pants business in forums / hottest subject this side of fish disease best prevention approaches.
 
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HomebroodExotics

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team

that thread has similarities to this one


see the large happy snail, that’s two bulletproof snails in a week and the fish always about to die but not acting like it

another thread where folks fully agree with api.

and then on other posts we tell the aquarist not to trust api

473F86EE-5AC2-4DD0-9369-9AE3DDC7B82A.png


@Azedenkae i have some questions about your assessment there if you’d discuss w me. It’s not to flame this thread here was plenty flameworthy

i want to ask if you will allow for the option of skip cycling in reef tank setups, like when conventions set up hundreds of reefs using live rock transferred over to the convention.

true resolved and assured skip cycles, not the kind that something *may* go wrong in the transfers (nobody has ever backed a skip cycle tank out of macna due to inability to meet the start date, 25 years, all starts on time no fails)


forum posters are not getting that info: that a small portion of cycles are true and for sure skip cycles...its certainly not written about by any authors or cycle scientists so no harm in applying the classic approach its how we all were trained. but web posts and reef conventions seem to get a different set of rules, I bet we can agree on that part.

while the forum cyclers are thinking the skip cycle convention reefs are weak, or about to expire, all along the convention owners trust their cycles to more $ in coral in one tank than any of us will own at any single time in our reefing. see that disparity, it persists and we get the percolate here in forums

So far I’ve never seen the option mentioned, or given to any poster as they’re all subject to wait until api allows the start.

Merely allowing that option for pet store live rock skip cycles will help tremendously to lower confusion for cyclers



there are some kinds of cycles that need literally no help, no delay, and no api testing, how can we identify those types of cycles from troubleshooting posts?

example:

See how in the title he said his reef was eight days old, but in reality the rocks had been underwater years minimum...it means he didn’t have to cycle with bottle bac and by dosing ammonia to see if it goes to full zero in 24 hours / which is indeed what all current cycling materials (and many LFS's) say to do




ammonia troubleshooting is hot pants business in forums / hottest subject this side of fish disease best prevention approaches.
Thread '2yr old emptied a tub of flakes into reef tank'

How come this aquarium couldn't handle the ammonia load either @brandon429?
 
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brandon429

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because all reefs have a tipping point, and a whole bottle of feed will do it.

also bathroom ammonia HBE, its important to know if you dump in a pint of ammonia toilet cleaner the ammonia will rise uncontrollably in a fish tank.

this op removed some rocks, introduced stray voltage from a barren powerline, and has the toughest corals and snails on the market one would think you'd find more relevant examples


also known to cause uncontrollable ammonia rises in marine fish aquariums: removing all rocks and sand and keeping the same fish bioload. there are nineteen ways to cause uncontrolled ammonia in reef tanks, you've won
 
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HomebroodExotics

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because all reefs have a tipping point, and a whole bottle of feed will do it.

also bathroom ammonia HBE, its important to know if you dump in a pint of ammonia toilet cleaner the ammonia will rise uncontrollably in a fish tank. you are pulling powerful stuff there man.

this op removed some rocks, introduced stray voltage from a barren powerline, and has the toughest corals and snails on the market one would think you'd find more relevant examples


also known to cause uncontrollable ammonia rises in marine fish aquariums: removing all rocks and sand and keeping the same fish bioload. there are nineteen ways to cause uncontrolled ammonia in reef tanks, you've won
Then why do you keep telling people that this is fine and their aquarium will handle it naturally because of skip cycles and your pattern recording abilities and multiple threads that you can link? Oh and false readings. I don't disagree with most of what you say it's just really annoying to see you push something 100% "that has never been shown nor demonstrated" and yet here we have 2 examples that I bet won't make it into your recorded patterns.

Tldr: it's a lot more complicated than just telling people the system will handle it.
 
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brandon429

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I make a custom call and prediction for each challenge/help post is why we differ. if someone breaks the norm and inputs raw cleaning ammonia, or 600 grams of protein, they may get a unique custom call for their issue. pretty rare, those are


when I select your post history and review it back a few mos, I don't see any of that


if you think I have a pattern of making bad reef tank predictions, load us up on some more threads you've found. we can easily just read 'em out for losses or wins. anything you want to scour, post away.

I wouldn't rate this current thread as the top prognostication ever made lol there's still 20% left out we don't know about this reef, it will be revealed on page 36 for yet another turn 180/


Did I mention that I had recently changed out all the rock for dry and the sand for dry and just reset up the tank? that's coming very soon here.
 
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Azedenkae

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Man I have no idea what you are talking about because everything you just said had nothing to do with what I just said but ok sounds good.
And that was why I put him on ignore about two days after joining the forum. Unignored Brandon a while back but since this thread, back on ignore.

You are just preaching to the choir at this point mate, best not waste your breath. Like you, I do see value in what Brandon has to say... at least some time. But then we have situations like this and it's just hard. Which is a shame, but eh.
 
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brandon429

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For the first time ever in this thread or really any other I recall, TCoach's seneye data on the ammonia levels IO mixes up to:

Tcoach.PNG


now we have an accurate baseline for what to expect input-wise.

hopefully everything that can be searched on me says a mere hundredths-level ammonia addition is no big deal for anyone's reef.

Randy covered years ago about salt mixes that begin with an initial nh3 load, and millions of water changes later all reefs are ok with it.
 
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NeonRabbit221B

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Just kinda want to stir the pot at some point... Not thinking it caused the tank collapse but I am curious.

Hey @allsite did you ever test freshly mixed SW and RO immediately after mixing with the new test kit? Hows the clown doing?
 
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brandon429

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@Azedenkae I haven't blocked you so that you can be corrected live time not to nit pick you, but to help the posters you may be disagreeing with.


in this link
you were indeed wrong and harsh to the OP, looks like anyone can falter.



Keep up the block though it will be best overall, and I'll keep up the watch too.





Wanted to show in the above example how by not allowing for any tanks whatsoever to undergo a total skip cycle, 1/3rd of most cycles on any given forum and 100% of marine convention setups are being discounted and missed.
 
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