Ammonia Still Up on Day 5 Using Dr. Tim's One and Only

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albertski

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The numbers you provide look good. For 0.8 ppm total ammonia and assuming 10% free ammonia, I would predict 0.08 ppm on the Seachem badge and an accurate calculated value 0.04 ppm. You report 0.05 ppm.
Any recommendations on what to do next? It's been pretty much stuck at .8ppm after I did a water change.
 
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albertski

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if the badge reads .05 Albertski, and the Red Sea says .08 nh3, is that a truly unacceptable spread for non digital gear? It’s pretty good I think. the two kits don’t appear too far apart now.


getting your badge ran on a full cycled reef back on page one would have saved the headache, that still remains a viable option, to prove your badge works fine.

that’s not a display reef, it won’t run the same ammonia control a reef display runs.

dont expect it to pass display cycling rules, a quarantine cycle should use less initial loading.



non TAN factoring really is a powerful impact to our hobby. There comes a point you use # of days underwater to time your cycle, but it depends on which method you want to use. Change your water and begin, that system can only carry a single fish or so in quarantine, you’ll have to account for feed as well.

When you say:

dont expect it to pass display cycling rules, a quarantine cycle should use less initial loading.

Are you saying I shouldn't expect the ammonia to go to 0?

What do you recommend me doing next? (Moving the badge to a DT is not an option)
 

Dan_P

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Any recommendations on what to do next? It's been pretty much stuck at .8ppm after I did a water change.
I can’t get my mind around a “stuck” cycle. Here are some thoughts.

A-The cycle never started. Nitrifying bacteria are not growing in your system
B-A problem with measuring total ammonia. This might be true for ammonia concentrations at or below 0.25 ppm, but not near 1 ppm.
C-Ammonia is being produced as fast as it is being consumed. Not sure this is ever true
D-Nitrifying bacteria never formed a stable biofilm and the water change removed the mostly pelagic bacteria. This a weird idea. Here is where it came from. When growing Bio-Spira in a plastic box, I had the same or more nitrifying activity in the water than on the surfaces of the box. Also, growth of Bio-Spira on microscope slides seems to be very weak.

What would I do? I would add Bio-Spira or Fritz Turbo Start.
 
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albertski

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I can’t get my mind around a “stuck” cycle. Here are some thoughts.

A-The cycle never started. Nitrifying bacteria are not growing in your system
B-A problem with measuring total ammonia. This might be true for ammonia concentrations at or below 0.25 ppm, but not near 1 ppm.
C-Ammonia is being produced as fast as it is being consumed. Not sure this is ever true
D-Nitrifying bacteria never formed a stable biofilm and the water change removed the mostly pelagic bacteria. This a weird idea. Here is where it came from. When growing Bio-Spira in a plastic box, I had the same or more nitrifying activity in the water than on the surfaces of the box. Also, growth of Bio-Spira on microscope slides seems to be very weak.

What would I do? I would add Bio-Spira or Fritz Turbo Start.
I'm thinking A the cycle never started. Just ordered Fritz Turbo Start. Thanks.
 

brandon429

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old cycling science always, always, always leads to a doubt and then into a new purchase of bacteria/its the perfect retail storm


your badge this whole time said things were fine. complete doubt in established timing regardless of examples shown or linked led to new purchases, and likely even more beyond this one, its fascinating. Not your fault, it’s happening to thousands who use the old metric requiring perfect zero in all conditions for both ammonia and nitrite.

meanwhile in the false stuck cycle thread, we're on page sixteen with no fails.

its good to track out these examples for pattern. if you owned seneye your entire experience would be 180 degrees different.
 
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mike89t

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When you say:



Are you saying I shouldn't expect the ammonia to go to 0?

What do you recommend me doing next? (Moving the badge to a DT is not an option)

Have you tried running the Ammonia test on a fresh batch of Salt Water to see what zero should look like with that test kit?
 
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albertski

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old cycling science always, always, always leads to a doubt and then into a new purchase of bacteria/its the perfect retail storm


your badge this whole time said things were fine. complete doubt in established timing regardless of examples shown or linked led to new purchases, and likely even more beyond this one, its fascinating. Not your fault, it’s happening to thousands who use the old metric requiring perfect zero in all conditions for both ammonia and nitrite.

meanwhile in the false stuck cycle thread, we're on page sixteen with no fails.

its good to track out these examples for pattern. if you owned seneye your entire experience would be 180 degrees different.
My badge is still towards the alert side so it might be close to the Red Sea. Ammonia never went down outside of the water change. In my opinion the cycle never started.

I don’t understand what you mean my badge is fine the whole time?
 
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albertski

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Day 18 Results:

Ammonia Red Sea Test Kit: .8 ppm (it may be between .8 and .4)
Ammonia Seachem Ammonia Badge: Safe .less than .02
Nitrate: .2 ppm
Nitrite: .1 ppm (I think yesterday should have been .5 instead of 1)
Salinity: 1.020 SG
Temperature: 79.1
Ph: 8.0
Alkalinity: 2.14
 
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albertski

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I can’t get my mind around a “stuck” cycle. Here are some thoughts.

A-The cycle never started. Nitrifying bacteria are not growing in your system
B-A problem with measuring total ammonia. This might be true for ammonia concentrations at or below 0.25 ppm, but not near 1 ppm.
C-Ammonia is being produced as fast as it is being consumed. Not sure this is ever true
D-Nitrifying bacteria never formed a stable biofilm and the water change removed the mostly pelagic bacteria. This a weird idea. Here is where it came from. When growing Bio-Spira in a plastic box, I had the same or more nitrifying activity in the water than on the surfaces of the box. Also, growth of Bio-Spira on microscope slides seems to be very weak.

What would I do? I would add Bio-Spira or Fritz Turbo Start.
Should I add some of the ammonia chloride once I add the Fritz Turbo Start?
 

Dan_P

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Should I add some of the ammonia chloride once I add the Fritz Turbo Start?
If your test shows 0.8 ppm ammonia, don’t add anymore. 2-4 day after adding Fritz check the ammonia and nitrite levels. When ammonia is consumed you can decide whether to do another round of feeding the bacteria ammonia to grow a larger population of nitrifying bacteria.
 
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albertski

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If your test shows 0.8 ppm ammonia, don’t add anymore. 2-4 day after adding Fritz check the ammonia and nitrite levels. When ammonia is consumed you can decide whether to do another round of feeding the bacteria ammonia to grow a larger population of nitrifying bacteria.
Thanks for the Fritz recommendation. I poured half the bottle of the Fritz in the tank, and the ammonia did go down to zero in seven days. The nitrate/nitrite started to go down, but it has been pretty much at 0.5 nitrite / 1 nitrate for the past three to four days. I would say ammonia has been at zero for five to six days. Do you think I should wait it out, or do you think I should do something (pour the remains Frtiz or change water)?

IMG_0121.jpg
 

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Thanks for the Fritz recommendation. I poured half the bottle of the Fritz in the tank, and the ammonia did go down to zero in seven days. The nitrate/nitrite started to go down, but it has been pretty much at 0.5 nitrite / 1 nitrate for the past three to four days. I would say ammonia has been at zero for five to six days. Do you think I should wait it out, or do you think I should do something (pour the remains Frtiz or change water)?

IMG_0121.jpg
Excellent. These biological systems are not like turning a light on or off, stuff happens. Personally I would add a small bit of crushed flake and wait for nitrite zero readings. That said, I’ve not seen any disasters with folks changing out the water at this stage, and slowly stocking. A small tank makes this viable, and cheap. Happy reefin :)
 

Dan_P

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Thanks for the Fritz recommendation. I poured half the bottle of the Fritz in the tank, and the ammonia did go down to zero in seven days. The nitrate/nitrite started to go down, but it has been pretty much at 0.5 nitrite / 1 nitrate for the past three to four days. I would say ammonia has been at zero for five to six days. Do you think I should wait it out, or do you think I should do something (pour the remains Frtiz or change water)?

IMG_0121.jpg
Sounds like you have successfully seeded your aquarium with nitrifying bacteria. The nitrite level will take a bit longer to decline. The nitrite oxidizing bacteria are a bit sluggish in seawater. By the way, nitrate measurements are erroneously high in the presence of nitrite. At this point, you have several options.

1) Slowly stock the aquarium.

2) Add 1 ppm NH4Cl to double check that the bacteria are really working and increase their numbers. Might be unnecessary. Then stock the aquarium

3) Water change. Then stock the aquarium. Not sure why a water change is performed before proceeding. @brandon429?
 

brandon429

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It’s ok to be skipped in just about all cycles because all these cycles control free ammonia fine and quickly, when assessed on seneye of course. We do it still in my threads to start with ultra clean water, vs mixed doser water it’s not for any burn protection. For folks who input multiple ppm raw ammonia it’s to export algae food


on seneye in a display tank any Dr Tims cycle is at hundredths ppm nh3 day one, while api shows about six ppm for a month heh I love it. that testing conflict keeps us busy and keeps the bottle bac sales machine rolling full steam. this will continue in the hobby until we all have cheap easy access digital test kits

for my cycle study threads: are any fish disease preps going to be made here, advised here, or are we going commando again like the fish disease forum shows


very rarely after non digital test cycling does any new aquarist follow disease prep rules, they’re itching to start given the delay, that’s the pattern noted. Based on trending Albert has a 1% likelihood of beginning fish protection preps, it’s usually all go from here on out and then in March…

if fish disease preps are made here that will be a positive turn/positive cycling example which benefits the hobby and fish lifespan
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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also handy: if Im not mistaken Albert's tank is a dry rock start, that's disease pure.

adding already quarantined fish counts fully as a prep protocol, it matches the type of cycle used. if it was a live rock transfer cycle those can be vectors from other tanks we'd need the long boring fallow. sources sell those fish ready to go, and this time of year is getting close to ideal shipping conditions for temps in most places. nothing extreme yet

*one small detail
adding other hardscape items like corals and clean up crews is still a vector to some, they're tiny contributors like live rock can be it seems from reading disease patterning. those who do pure fallow would qt for 45-80 days any hardscape addition whatsoever. that starts to become rigid/medical aware and its unappealing. any happy medium is ok.

still, not everyone who does system fallow does the strict fallow on inputs and they still honestly have a higher fish retention rate at month 8 than no prep tanks at all, so even if we add pre qt fish and then normal corals and CUC, that puts this tank in line with best practices still. there's benefits to these dry rock starts
 
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albertski

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also handy: if Im not mistaken Albert's tank is a dry rock start, that's disease pure.

adding already quarantined fish counts fully as a prep protocol, it matches the type of cycle used. if it was a live rock transfer cycle those can be vectors from other tanks we'd need the long boring fallow.

*one small detail
adding other hardscape items like corals and clean up crews is still a vector to some, they're tiny contributors like live rock can be it seems from reading disease patterning. those who do pure fallow would qt for 45-80 days any hardscape addition whatsoever. that starts to become rigid/medical aware and its unappealing. any happy medium is ok.

still, not everyone who does system fallow does the strict fallow on inputs and they still honestly have a higher fish retention rate at month 8 than no prep tanks at all, so even if we add pre qt fish and then normal corals and CUC, that puts this tank in line with best practices still. there's benefits to these dry rock starts
It is a quarantine tank so bare bottom with glass marbles.
94ED2A58-646D-4C59-A7C9-77D5BF69D2B8.jpeg
 

brandon429

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nice ha that's right I recall. restricted surface area challenge compared to display runs yes.
didn't reread this morning. you had that plan in place for sure!
 

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So I just read this whole thread and I see everyone missed one important detail. You started with microbacter 7 and then switched to Dr. Tims. These two provide two difference sources of nitrying bacteria. Both sources compete with one another, which in turn, can effectively restart you cycle at the introduction of the second one. Dr. Tim explained this in detail in one of his videos. Sounds to me like you restarted your cycle when you introduced a competing source. Additionally, you have a bare bottom tank with glass marbles. This provides little surface area for the bacteria to attach. Simply put, these are not ideal conditions for bacteria to attach to. Your personal choices are slowing down the process. Glad you pushed through it all. Hope your tank is doing well.
 

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