Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

[RMS18]

I think the reason you don't often see the "do nothing" approach is largely a historical one. When I first started in the hobby, the recommendation was either to do nothing or to reduce nutrient levels. I had a few buddies that chose to let things play out and one tank I was called in to work on from an owner that hadn't touched it in months beyond adding top off water and feeding the fish. In all of the cases, those that did nothing often ended up losing of their corals as well as some other animals. Two of the cases were for ostreopsis, which is decidedly more toxic and at least one I scoped out as amphidinium. Anyway, I know my little anecdote is only an n=4, however from what I've seen personally as well as the reefers I've talked to who said they didn't do anything and did have amphidinium, I don't think letting the tank reach "equilibrium" has proven to be an effective stratedgy. I'd love if the Julian Sprung model of disturbance/equilibrium/homeostasis/stressor was effective for these dinos, but I haven't seen any evidence to that effect.

That being said, if you want to run the experiment, I'd love to follow how it goes

I've been on the dino train for 5+ years now, half my tanks never had issues the other half do. I was one of those who dosed bleach back in the day along with the metro when Tillward was experimenting. During these years all the threads and my personal experiences, I've never lost a coral to Amphidinium Dino's. I've lost corals to the changes / things I've added. Since this thread is for Amphidinium, we are not concerned with toxicity and the waiting game may be the solution to this strain. We always want a solution, and solutions in a bottle are becoming bigger thing as this hobby evolves, just not sure it applies in this case. I'd love to hear good news but, I'm going to take a step back and keep my corals alive while others mess with concoctions.

 

[blennyfromtheblock]

Hello dino-fighters! I was just looking at a sample of some pale brown mucus from the tank under the microscope which turned out to be made up of crysophytes (golden algae). A large-cell amphidinium dino swam by, so I took a quick video which shows the dino and chrysophytes side by side. Posting it here in case anyone finds this useful for identification/differentiation.

 

[JCTReefer]

Here’s something interesting. After I pulled my sand, boiled, and put back. Most of the amphidinium were undetectable on my scope.
Seems they were replaced with Ostreopsis. Or not replaced, but gave them the upper hand to establish themselves. Now a week ago I decided to soak some sand in hydrogen peroxide for an hour or so and then added a cup full to the tank because my Wrasse was having a hard time at night burrowing. I luckily had no negative effects by dumping this sand in the tank. This was the only sand I had left. I don’t suggest doing this. I added a 15watt UV plumbed directly in the tank a little over a week ago. The ostreopsis was knocked back to the point of it not producing webs on the corals anymore. Zoanthids and Clove polyps have started to open back up over the last week. LPS all look good besides losing one of my torches. No dinos on the rocks anymore either. It was never bad on the rocks, just 99% on the sand bed. I noticed the sand was unusually brown in one spot last night, so I took a sample. I’ve identified that I certainly still have ostreopsis as I anticipated, but was really happy to discover the number of diatoms in the sample. A month ago, I found very few diatoms. Now what I don’t know about the sample is the shadowed cells in the picture. They are much larger and kind of resemble large Cell Amphidinium. Whatever they are they are smothered in diatoms and don’t seem to be moving at all. Here’s a pic I took last night. Any ideas?

 

[CDavmd]

Ok...so here's an update:

After my previous posts of disgust and frustration I felt better and regrouped. I had beaten Amphidinium once long ago in my old system ( the posts are early in this thread) by dosing Silicates and frequent pod (amphipod/Isopod) boosting. I figured as we were discussing I would continue this but stop all the other siphoning, stirring, etc. I still blew the rocks periodically to keep things off the corals.

So here goes....I spent some buck and purchased from @aquaculturenurseryfarms:

1. 10,000 Amphipods
2. 50 Feeder shrimp
3. Chaeto
4. Reef Soup

....a few days later I added another 5000 amphipods. I did this late at night in the dark- I scooped out some sand in a particularly bad area of dino and mixed in the amphipods and let things sit for a while. I then put the mix of pods and sand gently back in the tank. I started a small refugium in the sump using the old top off container that I drilled. I put some Garf grunge in that along with chaeto, amphipods, some feeder shrimp, and copepods.

A few days later my subscription of Algae barn 5280 pods came along with some phytoplankton. I've been getting this for a year now, and although it likely does not help eliminate Dino's, it does maintain the population for my wrasses. In any event, I also added to the order 4 bottles of the ecopods, and a bottle of the purple sulfur bacteria- PN Probio. I dosed a large amount of the bacteria empirically.

I added these new copepods to the refugium and display. Lastly, I re-stocked my clean up crew from reef cleaners, a mix of hermits, snails, limpets, etc. I purposely added some of the shipping water to the tank.

All the while I have been dosing silicates (sponge excel). The level would not rise much at first but finally bumped up to the ratio of 1:1 with my Nitrate Nitrogen. The diatom bloom was scary!!

At night the tank is teaming with life, pods running and scurrying everywhere- the feeder shrimp that did not become a wrasse meal are out and about as well.

Lastly I have been dosing coral snow in the evenings when the dino's are at their worst. This coincides with one of the bumps in flow that happen though out the day. I have my Neptuen Wav Pumps to go 100% for 5 minutes every three hours and get detritus suspended....using the coral snow along with this, I am having to change my filter socks every couple days.

I did leave my temps at around 82 ( 81.7-82.3) and continued my UV sterilizer due to the Ostreopsis that was originally the problem.

What I stopped was the daily sand stir and siphoning through the 1 micron filter, I stopped dosing waste away, MB7, MB Clean, and refresh. I stopped reef roids and any other supplements other than Nitrate (if needed and its not been). No water changes, and minimal scraping of the front glass only.

I have been feeding my fish twice a day- the morning is a mix of mysid, roe, seaweed, big stuff, etc., once a week I give my tang a 1 inch squat of Nori. In the evenings I feed some decap'd brine and arctipods for my anthias.

Nutrients are running on the high side- Nitrate is in the 16-24 range. Phosphate which had been 0.1 has creeped up to 0.3 and I am using all my willpower and restraint to not try and bring it down.

So the sand starts out clean in the morning and by late afternoon looks like vomit! The amount of diatom brown everywhere is scary! A few times last week I sampled and looked under the scope and saw sand pebbles covered in diatoms and those dang amphidinium having a party right along with them. It was so discouraging to see this every single evening.

Then I noticed something curious over the last two days. Despite my Silica levels running at about 2.6 the brown daily bloom did not look as bad. Normally it covered ever spot of sand but all of a sudden I am seeing areas that look white. I decided to be brave and look under the scope- I sampled the worst area I could find that was dark chocolate brown.

All I see are zillions and zillions of diatoms. They are covering every grain of sand....AND THE SAND MOVES!!! All sorts of critters, pods, nematodes, strange crab/tick looking creatures....just an explosion of diverse life but guess what....no matter how much I searched I only saw 1...yes ONE Amphidinium!!!!! I am talking about a small quarter size petri-dish with a layer of sand and water and I only found 1 amphipod.....hard to believe the transformation. Focusing through superficial to deep only shows diatoms. Focusing on the water column basically showed a sea of diatoms!

I am CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC......these jerks always find a way to become prominent so I don't trust that I am winning but I am pleased with what I saw for the first time in a long time.

I'll continue along this course and report back.

 

[andrewey]

Glad to hear it @CDavmd! Keep up the great work- I'm glad things are looking up!

 

[Dj City]

The battle continues...

 

[lakai]

Has anyone tried tried just covering dinos with new sand or clean(without dinos) sand? A few months ago I remember getting a small outbreak of dinos and I took the sand from the other side of the tank and blanketed it with a new bag of sand and it kinda of just never poked its head out again.

 

[Dj City]

Has anyone tried tried just covering dinos with new sand or clean(without dinos) sand? A few months ago I remember getting a small outbreak of dinos and I took the sand from the other side of the tank and blanketed it with a new bag of sand and it kinda of just never poked its head out again.

It does not work. It makes the problem worse.

 

[Dj City]

May 18th, 2020
I am 99% sure I have Dinos.
I ordered the quartz sleeve and a new bulb for the UV so when I hook it up with the 1 inch pipe, I should be good.
I plan on putting the pump directly in the display on the sandbed. I'm going to take a powerhead and blow everything into the water column so the UV can get to work.

May 20th, 2020
Finally. I don't know why I had such a hard time posting these pics.
This stuff was EVERYWHERE! I'm convinced it's dinos. I hope the properly sized Pentair Aquatics Smart 40watt UV with the correct flow (1019gph) along with the blackouts knock the dinos out!
I will probably dose Vibrant after the blackouts.

wish me luck.

 

[Dj City]

May 20th, 2020

I started the 3 or 4 day blackout with the UV sterilizer installed.
I have 1017 gph going through the Pentair Smart 40UV. That's the right flow for what i'm trying to do. I have taken a powerhead and blew the rocks RELLY well dislodging a lot of "stuff". I wiped the glass down and wiped the powerheads down along both the return plumbing. I turned all the sand.
I pretty much made the biggest mess I could and got as much into the water column as possible,
I've done this twice so far and will continue to do it at least twice a day for the duration of the blackout,
After 3 days of this, I will let light into the tank for a day or two while keeping the UV going and continuing to blow the rocks and turn the sand.
Then I may go with another 3 day blackout but this time without blowing the rocks off twice a day so I get a TRUE 3 day blackout

 

[Dj City]

May 22, 2020

Blackout alone will do absolutely nothing.
The properly sized UV with the correct flow rate should help a lot along with the blackout to weaken them.
I have been blowing the crap out the rocks with a powerhead, turning the sand, brushing and wiping the powerheads in the tank as well as wiping the return plumbing and cleaning all the glass.
I'm getting as much as possible into the water column so the U.V. can get at it and do it's job.
After blackouts, I will be adding Dr. Tims Waste Away, Microbacter 7 and Vibrant.

Nitrates.....0 - 5ppm (Closer to 5ppm)
Phos..........0.04 - 0.08
Alk.............8.16 (Trident)
Cal............393 (Trident)
Mag..........1398 (Trident)
Ph.............7.95 (Apex probe)
Salt...........35.5 (Apex probe)
ORP..........339 (Apex probe)
Temp.......80 (Apex probe)
Nitrate test is API reagent via Reefbot
Phos test is Red Sea reagent via Reefbot.

For kicks and giggles I tried Chemiclean for process of elimination. It is NOT cyano. I have my microscope but don't feel like going through all that because i'm 99.9% sure i'm dealing with Dinos from my established bio media.

 

[Dj City]

May 24th, 2020

I ended the blackout this morning. I had the UV in temporary install. It is now removed but ready for redeployment.
Of course tank looks fabulous but the next 72 hours will let me know if this was very effective, slightly effective or not effective at all.
Vibrant dosing restarts today via Apex Dos.

 

[Dj City]

May 29th, 2020

Dinos...

The blackout along with the U.V. worked (somewhat).
It knocked the dinos way back but of course it did not kill them all. I had to order another quartz sleeve because I broke the one in the U.V. (again).
The dinos are just beginning to slowly re-emerge. I've ordered Dr Tim's Refresh and Waste Away to continue my attack and I will follow his dinoflagellates regiment.
My thought is that by hitting them from multiple sides,, I should be able to eradicate them.

So, its gonna be...

3 day blackout with U.V. (already done)
•
Vibrant and Microbacter7 (currently dosing)
•
3 day blackout with Dr Tim's Refresh
•
Dr Tim's Waste Away liquid
•
Dr Tim's Waste Away Gel
•
Redeployment of U.V.

That should do it.

 

[Dj City]

June 4th, 2020

Detailed Update and Plan of Action...

The dinos were knocked back but as expected, they were not defeated (yet).

I am taking an aggressive multi pronged approach to this problem.
U.V.
3 day blackout
Diatomaceous earth filter
Dr Tim's Dino recipe
Dr Tim's waste away gel

The quartz sleeve for my UV arrived yesterday and I put the UV back into temporary service (no blackout).
I have the feed pump in the tank and the return in the tank creating a closed loop. Pump is a Jeabo DCP15000. Pump is about a 1/2 inch above the sandbed. PVC pipe goes from pump to top of tank (about 25 inches) through 2 90° elbows forming a "U" and down about 6ft. to the UV.
The UV is laying horizontally on the floor in front of the tank. Water goes through the UV then back up about 6ft of PVC pipe then through 2 90° elbows forming a "U" to return water to the tank.
I am flowing 1019 gph through the UV according to apex flow meter. The UV calls for between 943 - 1574 gph to deal with algae, bacteria and dinos.
I use a Tunze 6105 on full blast to blow the rocks, sand and all surfaces. I put the pump right up to the rocks and make the biggest mess I can getting everything in the water column so it can go through the UV.

I have 4 Marineland Magnum polishing internal filters. Each rated for up to 97 gal tank / 290 gph. These filters will run Diatomaceous earth powder to mechanically filter dinos out.

I will be using Dr Tim's Dino recipe. This should wipe dinos out along with the other methods I am employing. The treatment consists of a 3 day blackout while dosing Dr Tim's Refresh then dosing Dr Tim's Waste Away liquid.
Once treatment is finished, Dr Tim's Waste Away gel will be employed.

This approach should kill dinos and keep em dead!

I'm not sure if I want to do the diatom filters before or after Dr. Tim's.
Maybe both.

 

[Dj City]

June 5th, 2020

My UV set up.
It's not pretty but it's effective.

 

[Dj City]

June 7th, 2020

Current parameters
Nitrates...............0 - 5ppm (Closer to 5ppm)
Phos....................0.04 - 0.08
Alk.......................8.6 (Trident)
Cal.......................406 (Trident)
Mag....................1357 (Trident)
Ph.......................7.79 (Apex probe) 7:30am
Salt.....................35.5 (Apex probe)
ORP....................353 (Apex probe)
Temp..................77.8 (Apex probe)
Nitrate test is API reagent via Reefbot
Phos test is Red Sea reagent via Reefbot.

I have run my lights on regular schedule for the past 4 days with the UV running. I will observe the tank for the next few days to see what's happening with the dinos. Yesterday tank looked good but dinos are present on overflow and powerheads. They are thin and light amount but still present.
Problem is that I can't KEEP the UV in operation like this even if it's effective. I can't have a giant return pump in my display. Running it from the sump to the sump is a waste. (See BRS UV videos)

I believe the approach I am taking is a good approach based on theory, past experiences and experiences of others.
I currently have UV running which should be reducing dinos population when I blow the rocks and sand and clean the glass to get the dinos into the water column. I plan to pull the UV in a few days and start treatment.

TREATMENT PLAN
1... Employ UV Sterilizer in closed loop
2... Remove UV to start Dr. Tim's Dino recipe
3... 3 day blackout dosing Dr. Tim's Refresh
4... Continue with Dr Tim's Waste Away liquid.
5... Use Dr. Tim's Waste Away gel in sump.

I am trying to decide when to use the heavy mechanical filtration (DE filters). Before treatment, after treatment or before and after. I will not use during because it filters down to 1 micron. I don't want Dr. Tim's bacteria getting filtered out.

This is not my 1st fight with dinos. Last battle I had was a 5 year battle on my old 110 gallon reef. DInos won.

The war I lost...
I raised nitrates and phosphates. (No good)
I used UV but did not know I was using it improperly. (No good)
Blackouts (knock them back but not good enough on its own)
Vibrant dosing. (No good)
MB7 dosing. (No good)
Peroxide dosing. (No good)
Sea cucumbers. (No good)
Stupidly high flow. (No good)
Leaving sand alone. (No good)
Surface siphoning sandbed. (No good)
Deep disturbing sandbed with heavy mechanical filtration using 5 micron socks changed every day. (Better but no good)
Feeding tank. (No good)
Starving tank. (No good)
Increase pods. (No good)
Beefed up fuge chaeto. (No good)
Decrease light intensity. (No good)
Increase light intensity. (No good)
Change light fixtures. (No good)
Sacred Indian dino dance. (No good)
9mm. (No good)
.45 ACP. (No good)
12ga. (No good)
Photon torpedo straight from the Starship Enterprise. (No good)

 

[Dj City]

June 8th, 2020

The UV plumbed the way I had it really did what it was supposed to do.
The dinos are not gone but they have been knocked back greatly.

Today I removed the UV and wrapped the tank (blackout).
Today is day 1 of Dr. Tim's Refresh. I'm going to follow this regiment and see where it ends up. I have not put the DE filters to use yet. I am till debating on that.

 

[ScottB]

June 8th, 2020

The UV plumbed the way I had it really did what it was supposed to do.
The dinos are not gone but they have been knocked back greatly.

Today I removed the UV and wrapped the tank (blackout).
Today is day 1 of Dr. Tim's Refresh. I'm going to follow this regiment and see where it ends up. I have not put the DE filters to use yet. I am till debating on that.

Condensing your timeline like you did here is very helpful for the members to fully understand your method, concisely. Well done.

A couple comments:
a) Agree those look like dinos. You could do the coffee filter test for giggles to confirm. But yeah, looks like a duck.
b) If you were able to confirm what you have is (only) large cell amphidinium, you could put the UV away. Won't work.
c) I would be dosing NO3 and PO4 to keep >10 and >.1 respectively and testing PO4 via Hanna ULR.
d) seevral common species release toxins and GAC is advised. However with all that bacteria dosing, I can't predict interactions.

Good luck!

 

[Miller535]

June 8th, 2020

The UV plumbed the way I had it really did what it was supposed to do.
The dinos are not gone but they have been knocked back greatly.

Today I removed the UV and wrapped the tank (blackout).
Today is day 1 of Dr. Tim's Refresh. I'm going to follow this regiment and see where it ends up. I have not put the DE filters to use yet. I am till debating on that.

I would not have removed the UV, as Dr. Tim's method is to turn off UV and skimmer for a few hours after each dose. But to turn them back ON a few hours later. One of his articles actually says you will end up with a bacterial bloom and I believe low oxygen if you are not actively removing the bacteria a few hours later each day.

 

[CDavmd]

Guys, lets not confuse things....UV does not work for Large Cell Amphidinium which is the topic of this thread. This type of dino hugs the sand granules and at night goes deeper in the sand. It does not enter the water-column and thus will not be affected by UV. Uv works great for Ostreopsis because it goes into the water column at night This should be discussed in the other dino thread.

Blackouts in my opinion just temporarily make things look good....and in the process you knock back the algae and diatoms you need to compete with the Amphidinium. The Amphidinium will simply outrun all the other lifeforms.

Similarly adding fresh clean sand will just provide Amphidinium empty new real estate to conquer. Remember Amphidinium multiply at a exponential rate. Once they get a foothold they will outgrow everything.

I have tried the bacterial recipes multiple times (Dr. Tims, Elegant Corals, etc) alone, in conjunction with blackouts, no skimming, UV, etc....never worked for long....things will look good for a week or two and then they come back.

What is working as was described at the beginning of this thread is silicate dosing and maintaining nitrate and phosphate at good levels. Get your silicates up....induce a major diatom bloom and you will finally have competition that will beat it out.