Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

[Reef and Dive]

I had success in my former battle against Amphidinium some months ago, but they have come back. I have observed that the ratio N/P went down to around 50 (6/0,12) from nearly 100. According to the extra tip you mention, would it be better to increase N to raise the relationship up to 100 instead of lowering PO4?

The turning point is around 20-10, so no…

 

[Gorsuch456]

Would love some tips/help here. I’ve read through basically the whole thread on amphidinium dino before I decided to post. I’ve been in and out of the reefing hobby for around 10 years. This is my first round with this type. I have what appears to be small cell(only assuming because it’s on basically every surface, sand, rock, glass, some soft corals, even found some floating in my sump. Due to this tank being new (3 months or so) I figure it was a diatom bloom from a potential bad rodi filter. Turns out that’s not the case. It basically started on the sand bed and of course when I attempted to clean it and blow off my corals it spread everywhere. Nutrients are on the rise I have NO3 at 5ppm and phos around 0.9. So far I’ve turned up temp to 82 over the course of a few days, doesn’t seem to help. I’ve vacuumed out sand and water, ran said water through a 5 micron filter reactor for about 30 mins in a bucket and return to tank. Also have doses h202 at 3ml per 10g. Took another sample and found a bunch of dead dinos floating around now. Also corals look mega happy after the dose, euphyilla especially. Anyways do I treat small cell like normal dinos or more along the lines of large cell? I took samples from sand, rock, glass, sump and mixed in a vial and everyone is the same size. Also found some spirulina cyano too as you can see in the video and picture surround by small cell?

 

[dwest]

Would love some tips/help here. I’ve read through basically the whole thread on amphidinium dino before I decided to post. I’ve been in and out of the reefing hobby for around 10 years. This is my first round with this type. I have what appears to be small cell(only assuming because it’s on basically every surface, sand, rock, glass, some soft corals, even found some floating in my sump. Due to this tank being new (3 months or so) I figure it was a diatom bloom from a potential bad rodi filter. Turns out that’s not the case. It basically started on the sand bed and of course when I attempted to clean it and blow off my corals it spread everywhere. Nutrients are on the rise I have NO3 at 5ppm and phos around 0.9. So far I’ve turned up temp to 82 over the course of a few days, doesn’t seem to help. I’ve vacuumed out sand and water, ran said water through a 5 micron filter reactor for about 30 mins in a bucket and return to tank. Also have doses h202 at 3ml per 10g. Took another sample and found a bunch of dead dinos floating around now. Also corals look mega happy after the dose, euphyilla especially. Anyways do I treat small cell like normal dinos or more along the lines of large cell? I took samples from sand, rock, glass, sump and mixed in a vial and everyone is the same size. Also found some spirulina cyano too as you can see in the video and picture surround by small cell?

I was going to update on my small cell amphidinium ”infestation“ anyway, so hopefully this will help you.

About 3 years ago, I had small cell amphidinium as a result of moving to a new system with some new (and some old) rock and sand, and trying to run low nutrients as it was the trend at the time. It was devastating to my tank to say the least. I lost fish and corals that I had for many years.

I tried UV, increased nitrates and phosphates, physical removal, micro filtering, and likely some other stuff I forgot. The big turn around for me was when I removed my sand bed while running measurable nitrates, phosphates, and UV. After fighting dinos for almost a year, I saw huge improvements within 2 weeks after removing my sand bed.

Two years after the turnaround, I have large acro colonies and things are great. Everything is back to normal. I have even begun adding sand back into my system. Hopefully next year this time I’ll have my sand bed back to normal.

 

[Gorsuch456]

I was going to update on my small cell amphidinium ”infestation“ anyway, so hopefully this will help you.

About 3 years ago, I had small cell amphidinium as a result of moving to a new system with some new (and some old) rock and sand, and trying to run low nutrients as it was the trend at the time. It was devastating to my tank to say the least. I lost fish and corals that I had for many years.

I tried UV, increased nitrates and phosphates, physical removal, micro filtering, and likely some other stuff I forgot. The big turn around for me was when I removed my sand bed while running measurable nitrates, phosphates, and UV. After fighting dinos for almost a year, I saw huge improvements within 2 weeks after removing my sand bed.

Two years after the turnaround, I have large acro colonies and things are great. Everything is back to normal. I have even begun adding sand back into my system. Hopefully next year this time I’ll have my sand bed back to normal.

Yeah unfortunately it seems like removing the sand bed is the go to. I remember reading some of your earlier post. What is the best way to run a UV for Dino? I’ll have to get one ordered I guess

 

[dwest]

Yeah unfortunately it seems like removing the sand bed is the go to. I remember reading some of your earlier post. What is the best way to run a UV for Dino? I’ll have to get one ordered I guess

I started running the UV in my sump. But nothing happened until I moved it into my display. I ran a 57 watt aqua UV in my 180 gallon tank, powered with a mj1200 powerhead. So I am another that believes you will want about 1 watt UV per 3 gallons of tank water. Run to and from display at 1-3 tank volumes per hour. The good news is that I no longer run UV (but ran it for 2 years) and am slowing adding back sand.

It’s a long ride, but you will get rid of these.

 

[Gorsuch456]

I started running the UV in my sump. But nothing happened until I moved it into my display. I ran a 57 watt aqua UV in my 180 gallon tank, powered with a mj1200 powerhead. So I am another that believes you will want about 1 watt UV per 3 gallons of tank water. Run to and from display at 1-3 tank volumes per hour. The good news is that I no longer run UV (but ran it for 2 years) and am slowing adding back sand.

It’s a long ride, but you will get rid of these.

So just curious how did you have it plumbed? I was considering a closed loop in sump but I’m guessing that didn’t work?

 

[dwest]

So just curious how did you have it plumbed? I was considering a closed loop in sump but I’m guessing that didn’t work?

Sump didn’t work for me. It also didn’t work for many others if you read the older big Dino thread from mcarroll.

I hung mine off the back of the tank. I used a small powerhead in the upper corner of the tank to feed the unit and a small pipe going back in. You can see the powerhead in the upper left of the tank in the pic below. It was not all that obtrusive to be honest.

This is the unit hung off the back before it was secured permanently.

 

[Gorsuch456]

Sump didn’t work for me. It also didn’t work for many others if you read the older big Dino thread from mcarroll.

I hung mine off the back of the tank. I used a small powerhead in the upper corner of the tank to feed the unit and a small pipe going back in. You can see the powerhead in the upper left of the tank in the pic below. It was not all that obtrusive to be honest.

This is the unit hung off the back before it was secured permanently.

Interesting, I’ll have to find a little pump to do that. I wonder why they wouldn’t work in sump? I mean the water going through the overflow should be the same as the water the pump is picking up I’d assume. Also did you run it 24/7?

 

[dwest]

Interesting, I’ll have to find a little pump to do that. I wonder why they wouldn’t work in sump? I mean the water going through the overflow should be the same as the water the pump is picking up I’d assume. Also did you run it 24/7?

There has been some discussion about why the sump doesn’t work but its all theory at this point. I ran my UV 24/7.

 

[taricha]

Anyways do I treat small cell like normal dinos or more along the lines of large cell?

More like normal dinos. They are more likely to enter the water, and more likely to have toxins (than large cell amphidinium).
Agree with your pics. spirulina and small cell - you can tell they are tiny by the comparison to the spirals of the spirulina.

 

[Gorsuch456]

More like normal dinos. They are more likely to enter the water, and more likely to have toxins (than large cell amphidinium).
Agree with your pics. spirulina and small cell - you can tell they are tiny by the comparison to the spirals of the spirulina.

Thanks I was hoping you chimed in. I’m gonna get my UV ordered and set it up like @dwest mentioned. I actually considered hooking it up in line of a canister filter. Anyone have experience doing this? That way I can just put the suction and return over the back of my tank instead of putting a pump in my tank. If that’s a dumb idea just let me know lol I think I have a canister somewhere here. Also should I do anything about the cyano or just let it ride and hope it gets wiped out with the dinos? It’s not bad I honestly didn’t notice any until I looked under the scope

 

[edolan]

I saw a video on Reefdudes that showed a diy sand vac that incorporated a RO canister and a 50 micron sediment filter. I am curious if anyone has tried something like this to syphon out dinos from the sand bed. I am not sure if 50 microns is small enough to capture small cell amphidinium or if a 5, 10 or 20 micron filter might be needed. The vac returned the water to the sump. Seems like a good way to pull dinos out without having to add new water and nutrients back to the tank which could feed a new bloom.

 

[Gorsuch456]

I saw a video on Reefdudes that showed a diy sand vac that incorporated a RO canister and a 50 micron sediment filter. I am curious if anyone has tried something like this to syphon out dinos from the sand bed. I am not sure if 50 microns is small enough to capture small cell amphidinium or if a 5, 10 or 20 micron filter might be needed. The vac returned the water to the sump. Seems like a good way to pull dinos out without having to add new water and nutrients back to the tank which could feed a new bloom.

I syphoned sand cover in dinos into a bucket, ran a reactor with a 5 micron filter in the water for like 30 mins returned to water.

 

[Gorsuch456]

So want to update on my slight battle win against small cell. So far only actions I have taken are, turned temp to 83 for like 5 days, during the last few days I siphoned the heavy covered sand into a bucket, ran reactor with 5 micron filter on that water that came out with sand. Dosed H202 at 3ml/10gal to the bucket, tank and sump. Repeated for 3 days while also taking Turkey Baster and blowing rocks and coral off. This is also while dosing NeoNitro, NeoPhos, spongexl, and microbactor7. Once I no longer saw much of a brown dusting I hit the tank with vibrant. 3 days now and sand is perfectly clear and very few signs of dino. Checked some “brown dust” on my rocks and just a random dino swimming around here and there and tons of busted cell dead ones. While this is not a “Win” it’s a good step forward to keeping them in check with competition. As of last night I added Ecopods and live phyto also. My corals like exploded (in a good way) after the first two doses of h202. Lowered temp back to 78.5 now and just monitoring while dosing everything daily except vibrant and h202

 

[4sylvester]

I have been battling amphidinium for almost 3 years now. In 2018 i tried to zap surface amphidinium with a custom UV light in a PVC pipe with a slit (to protect fish). I waved the light over the dinos on top of the sand bed. It really seemed to help but there was no way i could get the uv light in all the places i needed to and no way to scientifically quantify the result. It was a PIA so I added caribsea live sand to the top of dino ridden sand bed and strangely enough that ran my dinos off. I was dino free for months. Then about a year later they came back. My sand was covered. I was doing weekly water changes and without it my corals looked like death. After each WC my corals perked up and within 3 days started suffering again. Carbon didn't seem to help. I couldn't see dinos anywhere on the rock or coral. I only saw it on the glass and sand so i assume it was small cell releasing toxins. I had to do 20% WC every week on my reefer 525xl to keep my coral alive..otherwise they were dying.

Fast forward .. 2 weeks ago i was ready to give up and shut the tank down. I bought a cheap "pond clarifier" on amazon (Jaebo PU-36 - 36Watt $86) and installed in my sump. Ran a slow flow to ensure it was killing everything that went through it. After 1 night i clearly could see improvement. I was skeptical but every day there were less and less amphidinium in my sand and in about a 7 days they were nearly all gone. .. and after 10 days no trace and my corals have sprung to life! Wish i added UV long ago. I didn't think it would do anything... but sump worked for me...

 

[chema]

I have been battling amphidinium for almost 3 years now. In 2018 i tried to zap surface amphidinium with a custom UV light in a PVC pipe with a slit (to protect fish). I waved the light over the dinos on top of the sand bed. It really seemed to help but there was no way i could get the uv light in all the places i needed to and no way to scientifically quantify the result. It was a PIA so I added caribsea live sand to the top of dino ridden sand bed and strangely enough that ran my dinos off. I was dino free for months. Then about a year later they came back. My sand was covered. I was doing weekly water changes and without it my corals looked like death. After each WC my corals perked up and within 3 days started suffering again. Carbon didn't seem to help. I couldn't see dinos anywhere on the rock or coral. I only saw it on the glass and sand so i assume it was small cell releasing toxins. I had to do 20% WC every week on my reefer 525xl to keep my coral alive..otherwise they were dying.

Fast forward .. 2 weeks ago i was ready to give up and shut the tank down. I bought a cheap "pond clarifier" on amazon (Jaebo PU-36 - 36Watt $86) and installed in my sump. Ran a slow flow to ensure it was killing everything that went through it. After 1 night i clearly could see improvement. I was skeptical but every day there were less and less amphidinium in my sand and in about a 7 days they were nearly all gone. .. and after 10 days no trace and my corals have sprung to life! Wish i added UV long ago. I didn't think it would do anything... but sump worked for me...

Do you have an idea of the kind of Amphidinium you had?

 

[4sylvester]

Not sure how to tell the difference... This is a pic from a few years ago. It would disappear at night. they look like "roombas" under the microscope spinning round and round

 

[COwCOw]

This thread is a spin-off from the @mcarroll very successful Dino thread
The purpose is to discuss methods for removal and fighting against a particular strain of dinoflagellate - Large Cell Amphidinium. It seems to make up about a third of the cases of dinos.
The reason this strain gets its own thread is that it hugs the sand while all the other known kinds of dinos go into the water column at night, and therefore individual cells are easily targeted by UV or small micron filtration.

Reasons for splitting it off from the Dino thread:
1. Other dinos have a reliable method for direct cell removal / killing - so this information is not necessary for the 2/3 of hobbyists in the dino thread who have other kinds.
2. This kind seems to be the least toxic, in some cases not noticeably toxic at all - meaning some things that may work for this kind won't work on the others.
3. Some of this info is speculative and there may be missteps and dead ends, so best to keep the other thread with proven advice.
4. The Dino thread is huge, and digressions that don't affect most users there only make it less readable.

So if from the other Dino thread you have microscope confirmed amphidinium, first - adopt the nutrient recommendations from that thread. They absolutely apply to this kind as well. Then when you are tired of siphoning brown patches out of your sand all the time, consider giving these a try and documenting how it goes.

Treatment Methods
Best candidate: Silica dosing. The concept is that by dosing Si - which is virtually always depleted under normal tank conditions - we can grow diatoms to compete with the dinoflagellate.
Maybe the diatom bloom depletes another needed trace element, or perhaps the diatoms generate chemicals that directly suppress the dinos.
For details see this post with fairly to-the-point instructions [Several people have recently reported issues with Salifert Si test kit - beware]
For more background see this run-down of the paper it's based on.
And for general Silica reef tank discussion see Randy's article.

other ideas: Macroalgae Crowding. I have been able to chase out amphidinium outbreaks on more than one occasion by placing blobs of Chaetomorpha right on top of the brown dino patches.
for details, see my account here and also here

other ideas: Macroalgae Chemical Warfare. The seaweed Dictyota dichotoma has been found to emit chemicals that suppress dinos and force ostreopsis live cells to retreat entirely into cyst stage over the course of 20 days. The seaweed is itself considered a pest, and it may not be sensible to introduce it to chase out amphidinium which may not be very toxic at all.

Status quo: Nutrients and siphon. Handle nutrients as outlined in dino thread, vacuum out the brown patches every few days and wait it out.

I want to dose Silicates but Im afraid that my take will be taken over by hair algae etc, Are there any preventions from that happening and for Silica would I need a test kit for it I could I just dose as directions?

 

[taricha]

I want to dose Silicates but Im afraid that my take will be taken over by hair algae etc, Are there any preventions from that happening and for Silica would I need a test kit for it I could I just dose as directions?

hair algae is not driven by Si. Si addition just adds diatoms as a viable competitor for dino and algae resources.
You can start with dosing brightwell spongexcel by instructions, but the hanna low range Si checker is what I'd use before dosing too much more.

 

[COwCOw]

hair algae is not driven by Si. Si addition just adds diatoms as a viable competitor for dino and algae resources.
You can start with dosing brightwell spongexcel by instructions, but the hanna low range Si checker is what I'd use before dosing too much more.

Alright ill try out spongeexcel thank you! and ill dose a little less than instructions just to be safe.