Analyzing Hanna Ammonia checker Hi784, chemistry and performance

[Malcontent]

Which Hach version you thinking of?
You only need two if it's freshwater.
One version, Hach hides some reagents in the cap.

What does seawater need? Citrate?

Hach ammonia salicylate
sodium salicylate	54-21-7	40-50%
sodium nitroferricynade	14402-89-2	<1%
m-nitrophenol	554-84-7	<0.5%
sodium citrate	68-04-2	40-50%
sodium tartrate	868-18-8	10-20%
Hach ammonia cyanurate
lithium hydroxide, anhydrous	1310-65-2	1-5%
sodium dichloroisocyanurate	2893-78-9	1-3%
sodium citrate	68-04-2	80-90%
sodium tartrate	868-18-8	5-15%

Hanna HI784:

"A" (liquid)
sodium hydroxide	1310-73-2	2-5%
"B" (powder)
not disclosed
"C" (powder)
sodium salicylate	54-21-7	50-100%
triclosene sodium dihydrate	51580-86-0	1-2.5%
sodium nitroprusside dihydrate	13755-38-9	1-3.5%

 

[taricha]

What does seawater need? Citrate?

right. citrate or other chelator to suppress the precipitation. The hanna B packet is that chelator.
There's also a chlorine / hypochlorite in there somewhere as the salycilate reaction needs it. Don't know if it's a tiny undeclared amount, or if one of the hach chemicals produces it during the reaction.
The chlorine/hypochlorite often goes in along with the high pH additive in several kits - Red Sea, API etc.

 

[Lasse]

@taricha

Old thread but I have done some analysis of my tank (soon 8 years old) with active denitrification in a reversed flow DSB. I have use Hanna Marine Master and the new ammonia version with powder. I was not very surprised of the measurements (see graph for march) because I know that I have a lot of bacterial (Heterotrophs) breakdown of organic matter

In April/May I have done 3 measurements with the same reagent - they show 0.15, 0.17 and 0.21.

A couple od days ago I got another batch of test reagents (I have wait for it) and after reading this thread I decide that I should do a test on a saltwater sample that´s not supposed to contain any NH3/NH4. I use OCEAMO corrector as my bulk saltwater. Its a liquid salt blend with controlled contain of different components. The zero test shows 0.06 ppm NH3/NH4 and this will be my method artefact that I will withdraw from my readings of my DT´s water using this batch of reagents. I did a test on my DT´s water and it was 0.05 ppm NH3/NH4. Because the accuracy is ± 0.05 ppm - the two tests show basically the same result.

Because I suspect that my water below my DSB contain a lot of NH3/NH4 - I will do a test of this water later on.

IMO - the Hanna NH3/NH4 test is good enough to use in reefing - especially with the new reagents.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dan_P]

@taricha

Old thread but I have done some analysis of my tank (soon 8 years old) with active denitrification in a reversed flow DSB. I have use Hanna Marine Master and the new ammonia version with powder. I was not very surprised of the measurements (see graph for march) because I know that I have a lot of bacterial (Heterotrophs) breakdown of organic matter

In April/May I have done 3 measurements with the same reagent - they show 0.15, 0.17 and 0.21.

A couple od days ago I got another batch of test reagents (I have wait for it) and after reading this thread I decide that I should do a test on a saltwater sample that´s not supposed to contain any NH3/NH4. I use OCEAMO corrector as my bulk saltwater. Its a liquid salt blend with controlled contain of different components. The zero test shows 0.06 ppm NH3/NH4 and this will be my method artefact that I will withdraw from my readings of my DT´s water using this batch of reagents. I did a test on my DT´s water and it was 0.05 ppm NH3/NH4. Because the accuracy is ± 0.05 ppm - the two tests show basically the same result.

Because I suspect that my water below my DSB contain a lot of NH3/NH4 - I will do a test of this water later on.

IMO - the Hanna NH3/NH4 test is good enough to use in reefing - especially with the new reagents.

Sincerely Lasse

When I carefully remove pore water from my 3 cm sand bed with a device to minimize infiltration of surface water into the collection tube I also measure ammonia in this range. This pore water also has elevated phosphate and lower oxygen. I would love to perform this measurement in aquaria suffering dinoflagellate and cyanobacteria blooms on the sand.

Your zero point is in the range we found for the modified API ammonia test. It is likely caused by the catalyst used in the test which turns yellow. We could probably decrease the zero point in the Hanna test by decreasing the reagent charge, but that would require a recalibration of the Checker. Also, the upper range would likely fall below 2.5 ppm

 

[Lasse]

From Dan's chart, his seneye reading 0.037 could correlate to somewhere around ~0.13ppm actual free ammonia.

Do you mean that seneye shows a measurement that is only 28% of the real value. If this is true - IMO - seneye would be worthless in order to decide if a water is toxic or not. This means that if you have pH 8.1 (as an example) and your seneye shows 0.14 (this level is not acute toxic but you should stay alert) i reality is around 0.51 and this concentration is direct and acute toxic.


I did some analyses below my DSB today - please see here. I publish them in my own thread because this is dynamite and some supermans kryptonite.

Build Thread - Lasses Dream Build

It looks looks like posts in the lounge forum not show up in latest post list. Do not miss this. Its pictures that few have seen before https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-great-elk-migration.715097/page-4#post-12454266 Sincerely Lasse

www.reef2reef.com

Sincerely Lasse

 

[taricha]

Do you mean that seneye shows a measurement that is only 28% of the real value. If this is true - IMO - seneye would be worthless in order to decide if a water is toxic or not.

Yep.
Well I wouldn't say it's worthless - it's super useful. But I certainly would want to calibrate it against a few known ammonia and pH values before deciding what the raw seneye reading actually meant.
Dan's data tells me this sort of calibration really is necessary.

 

[Lasse]

Well I wouldn't say it's worthless - it's super useful. But I certainly would want to calibrate it against a few known ammonia and pH values before deciding what the raw seneye reading actually meant.
Dan's data tells me this sort of calibration really is necessary.

I still will say its worthless for most users that´s not have a degree in inorganic chemistry in its pocket. Some people here talk about it as holly grail for people when they start their aquariums and if seneye show low figures - just in with fish. Dan´s data says that if you do not calibrate it - you can´t trust it

Much easier with Hanna Marine Master or the marin total ammonia checker, pH, temp salinity and this calculator or a method that guarantees that the start will not create any high NH3 concentration (my fifteen steps or simulare method dosing very, very. very low amounts of ammonium chloride - lesser than 0.02 mg/L NH3/NH4 with the same frequency -1 week every third day, second week every second day and third week - every day. Adding nitrification bacteria in one or another way is also needed. In this start you can also use Hanna in order to control that the total ammonia does not build up.

Sincerely Lasse

​

 

[brandon429]

That’s another false statement Lasse. You’re good at those. Try running a search when I mentioned seneye and see how many years I’ve been saying to calibrate them on a running tank first before making proofs. In private messages Dan and I and Taricha talked about calibration every time, it goes back years on file.

I said the opposite about just dumping in fish on a low reading, I mentioned calibration every time.


When you try and slip a falsehood among good science that needs to be called out, the rest of what you typed read pretty well though.

Here’s from 2020, I think we started talking about calibrating them in ‘18 or ‘19 as the searches show.

 

[Garf]

That’s another false statement Lasse. You’re good at those. Try running a search when I mentioned seneye and see how many years I’ve been saying to calibrate them on a running tank first before making proofs. In private messages Dan and I and Taricha talked about calibration every time, it goes back years on file.

I said the opposite about just dumping in fish on a low reading, I mentioned calibration every time.


When you try and slip a falsehood among good science that needs to be called out, the rest of what you typed read pretty well though.

Can you point out where Lasse is making falsehoods?

 

[brandon429]

Second sentence post #107

Who was he referring to? I’ve sold it as a grail before and he and I are always debating it’s utility in threads. if he means someone else based on a litany of posts on file then that’s news to me.

 

[Garf]

Second sentence post #107

Who was he referring to? I’ve sold it as a grail before and he and I are always debating it’s utility in threads. if he means someone else based on a litany of posts on file then that’s news to me.

Ok. From my reading of your threads, you get seneye users to fiddle the figures down to 0.001 or 0.002. in my mind this makes the seneye useless for it's intended purpose of indicating a dangerous ammonia condition, therefore risking livestock.

 

[Lasse]

Someone feels hit

Dan´s calibration is one thing - its clear in his article that the seneye show too small figures (around 28% of the real value) - but to adverse other peoples to write down a reading that shown some NH3 to 0.001 - 0.002 only based on the fact the mature reefs have shown to have a reading of 0.04 and some people says it is impossible that a mature reef can have this - is a total other thing. If you use Dan´s calibration curve - a seneye reading of 0.04 is i reality 0.14 if seneye´s pH reading are right. At 0.14 mg/L NH3 - things start to be nasty. If someone advise that 0.04 should be read as 0.001 - 0.002 - Huston - we have a problem......

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Someone feels hit

Dan´s calibration is one thing - its clear in his article that the seneye show too small figures (around 28% of the real value) - but to adverse other peoples to write down a reading that shown some NH3 to 0.001 - 0.002 only based on the fact the mature reefs have shown to have a reading of 0.04 and some people says it is impossible that a mature reef can have this - is a total other thing. If you use Dan´s calibration curve - a seneye reading of 0.04 is i reality 0.14 if seneye´s pH reading are right. At 0.14 mg/L NH3 - things start to be nasty. If someone advise that 0.04 should be read as 0.001 - 0.002 - Huston - we have a problem......

Sincerely Lasse

In any case - shouldn't a 'scientific instrument' be designed to give the correct number - i.e. automatically do whatever needs to be done in the softwear/design? If it's as "easy" to use the seneye as people say - why wouldn't they build this calibration step into the device itself? hmmmm

 

[Mr Phu]

Hanna's saltwater ammonia checker, Hi784 is out and I wanted to take a look and assess its performance for reef tank water, and see where some interpretation of results might be helpful. This post will include some data on a display tank processing ammonia, and in a later post I'll do a comparison of accuracy vs ammonia stock additions.

Checker specs

Range	0.00 to 2.50 ppm (mg/L) NH3 [to clarify, it's actually NH3+NH4]
Resolution	0.01ppm
Accuracy @ 25°C/77°F	±0.05 ppm ±5% of reading @ 25 °C (77 °F)
Light Source	Light Emitting Diode @ 610 nm
Light Detector	Silicon photocell
Method	Adaptation of the Salicylate Method. The reaction between Ammonia and Ammonium and the reagent causes a blue‑green tint in the sample.

This (like the other chemical tests - API, red sea etc.) is a total ammonia test using salicylate method.
The other common ammonia detection method in the hobby is the Seachem ammonia alert badges, multi-test disks and seneye, which all use gas-permeable membranes to measure NH3 only. Calculation of toxic free ammonia, NH3 from the hanna total ammonia test involves using a table of pH and temp like what's included in the hanna checker manual



These are the %'s to multiply the total ammonia reading by to calculate toxic free ammonia, NH3.

Using the kit, you'll find it's very much like the API test. The first liquid drop reagent contains the salicylate and nitroprusside compounds that makes up the thick yellow/brown drops, and the last liquid drop reagent is the high pH additive, sodium hydroxide and the hypochlorite, again like API. The "new" bit that makes it work for a hanna checker is the powder reagent B added between the two liquids, it's a chelating agent to prevent cloudiness that would cause the checker color measurement step to fail.
( @Dan_P posted how to do this using sodium citrate to keep the API test clear and run it in a hanna checker at 610nm a year and a half ago.)

The cloudiness-killing step is essential, and if cloudiness forms in your sample by the end of the 15 minute hold time - from not enough reagent B, or salinity too high - then don't bother with the checker step, cloudiness will read nonsense high.


The first performance question to talk about is results on perfectly stable tanks. Measurements of mature stable systems seem to generate values in the 0.1-0.2 ppm range. Here's @SaltwaterAq measuring 0.19ppm total ammonia on a healthy mature system, and my display that consistently runs zeros on NO3 (and all other inorganic N forms) measured 0.15, and 0.14 (not near feeding times) on two different days.
Since a stable mature system is almost everybody, some clarity here is helpful as to whether our tanks are actually generating a couple of tenths of total ammonia by constant churn of remineralization of food, or if this is simply a test kit artifact.

A simple way to illuminate this is how a mature system handles a known several tenths ppm of ammonia and compare to what the hanna checker is seeing. So I added an expected ~+0.50ppm total ammonia to my display (carefully measured, I already know how my system consumes ammonia, and it was at pH at 7.8, so no real hazard here)

(lots of ammonia-consuming surfaces between the display and the lighted sump)


Blue stars show the baseline measurement, and red shows the values while the spiked ammonia is being consumed.




Here you can see a few features.
1) the expected spike of +0.5ppm ammonia is well measured (actual calibration curve in a later post when I get more reagents).
2) the depletion trend is consistent, and the checker captured very well the mechanics of what's going on.
3) the consumption rate is consistent with the idea that actual ammonia is consumed rapidly in a tank like this: in fact the consumption rate is pretty steady at 0.5, 0.4, 0.3 down to 0.2 ppm ammonia. It makes very little sense to suggest consumption suddenly stops at 0.15ppm.
Instead it is far more likely that the detected 0.1-0.2ppm ammonia that people are measuring is simply a test kit artifact, and very unlikely that tanks deplete ammonia rapidly from 0.5ppm to 0.2ppm then just stop.

This phantom couple of tenths total ammonia will be very familiar to anyone who's seen a bunch of API tests.

Below is what the reacted tests on clear tank water looks like for test results measuring 0.15 ppm.



Notice that both API and hanna generate this blush of "not-quite-yellow" color that people (and now the checker's digital eyeball) misinterpret as an ammonia detection. This is simply an artifact of the test kit chemistry. Compare to what a genuine detection of ~0.5 ppm ammonia looks like below. There is no confusion or ambiguity.


There are some chemistry details on the formation of this low level test kit artifact (it's not just people's bad eyes getting fooled), but I'll save it for later.
The short answer is to simply interpret 0.1-0.2ppm readings as zero baseline the same way a slight blush of green on API should be read as zero.

Calibration data for the Hanna Kit is here in post #10

so u mean Hanna checker Ammonia around 0.1 to 0.2 that mean zero Ammonia right ? And safery for fish right ?
My checker in tank alway 0.17 on morning and 0.22 on afternoon is that nornal ??

 

[Mr Phu]

it was that reef which is nine months old, and looks like this:


he had 8 ppm alert posted three weeks ago, and about that bad still running as of today he says. Taricha's 1 day drop seemed to have stopped for that guy above if we consider non digital testing over digital test kit findings.

it's my opinion that guys cycle did what T has outlined, and something is off in the testing for him. he sure did dump in a lot of prime at the start, before posting to us, but that's claimed to not be a test kit foul/mystery continues.

so u mean Hanna checker Ammonia around 0.1 to 0.2 that mean zero Ammonia right ? And safery for fish right ?
My checker in tank alway 0.17 on morning and 0.22 on afternoon is that nornal ??

 

[taricha]

so u mean Hanna checker Ammonia around 0.1 to 0.2 that mean zero Ammonia right ? And safery for fish right ?
My checker in tank alway 0.17 on morning and 0.22 on afternoon is that nornal ??

Yes, exactly. It should be interpreted as zero.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

so u mean Hanna checker Ammonia around 0.1 to 0.2 that mean zero Ammonia right ? And safery for fish right ?
My checker in tank alway 0.17 on morning and 0.22 on afternoon is that nornal ??

Whether it is actually 0.0001, 0.1, or 0.2 ppm total ammonia, it is fine for fish.

Ammonia is Our Friend!

Ammonia is Our Friend By Randy Holmes-Farley Yes, I know the title is provocative, and likely goes against much of what you read and hear in the reef aquarium hobby. I believe, however, that the hobby may have been harmed by the continual...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Mr Phu]

So

Hanna's saltwater ammonia checker, Hi784 is out and I wanted to take a look and assess its performance for reef tank water, and see where some interpretation of results might be helpful. This post will include some data on a display tank processing ammonia, and in a later post I'll do a comparison of accuracy vs ammonia stock additions.

Checker specs

Range	0.00 to 2.50 ppm (mg/L) NH3 [to clarify, it's actually NH3+NH4]
Resolution	0.01ppm
Accuracy @ 25°C/77°F	±0.05 ppm ±5% of reading @ 25 °C (77 °F)
Light Source	Light Emitting Diode @ 610 nm
Light Detector	Silicon photocell
Method	Adaptation of the Salicylate Method. The reaction between Ammonia and Ammonium and the reagent causes a blue‑green tint in the sample.

This (like the other chemical tests - API, red sea etc.) is a total ammonia test using salicylate method.
The other common ammonia detection method in the hobby is the Seachem ammonia alert badges, multi-test disks and seneye, which all use gas-permeable membranes to measure NH3 only. Calculation of toxic free ammonia, NH3 from the hanna total ammonia test involves using a table of pH and temp like what's included in the hanna checker manual



These are the %'s to multiply the total ammonia reading by to calculate toxic free ammonia, NH3.

Using the kit, you'll find it's very much like the API test. The first liquid drop reagent contains the salicylate and nitroprusside compounds that makes up the thick yellow/brown drops, and the last liquid drop reagent is the high pH additive, sodium hydroxide and the hypochlorite, again like API. The "new" bit that makes it work for a hanna checker is the powder reagent B added between the two liquids, it's a chelating agent to prevent cloudiness that would cause the checker color measurement step to fail.
( @Dan_P posted how to do this using sodium citrate to keep the API test clear and run it in a hanna checker at 610nm a year and a half ago.)

The cloudiness-killing step is essential, and if cloudiness forms in your sample by the end of the 15 minute hold time - from not enough reagent B, or salinity too high - then don't bother with the checker step, cloudiness will read nonsense high.


The first performance question to talk about is results on perfectly stable tanks. Measurements of mature stable systems seem to generate values in the 0.1-0.2 ppm range. Here's @SaltwaterAq measuring 0.19ppm total ammonia on a healthy mature system, and my display that consistently runs zeros on NO3 (and all other inorganic N forms) measured 0.15, and 0.14 (not near feeding times) on two different days.
Since a stable mature system is almost everybody, some clarity here is helpful as to whether our tanks are actually generating a couple of tenths of total ammonia by constant churn of remineralization of food, or if this is simply a test kit artifact.

A simple way to illuminate this is how a mature system handles a known several tenths ppm of ammonia and compare to what the hanna checker is seeing. So I added an expected ~+0.50ppm total ammonia to my display (carefully measured, I already know how my system consumes ammonia, and it was at pH at 7.8, so no real hazard here)

(lots of ammonia-consuming surfaces between the display and the lighted sump)


Blue stars show the baseline measurement, and red shows the values while the spiked ammonia is being consumed.




Here you can see a few features.
1) the expected spike of +0.5ppm ammonia is well measured (actual calibration curve in a later post when I get more reagents).
2) the depletion trend is consistent, and the checker captured very well the mechanics of what's going on.
3) the consumption rate is consistent with the idea that actual ammonia is consumed rapidly in a tank like this: in fact the consumption rate is pretty steady at 0.5, 0.4, 0.3 down to 0.2 ppm ammonia. It makes very little sense to suggest consumption suddenly stops at 0.15ppm.
Instead it is far more likely that the detected 0.1-0.2ppm ammonia that people are measuring is simply a test kit artifact, and very unlikely that tanks deplete ammonia rapidly from 0.5ppm to 0.2ppm then just stop.

This phantom couple of tenths total ammonia will be very familiar to anyone who's seen a bunch of API tests.

Below is what the reacted tests on clear tank water looks like for test results measuring 0.15 ppm.



Notice that both API and hanna generate this blush of "not-quite-yellow" color that people (and now the checker's digital eyeball) misinterpret as an ammonia detection. This is simply an artifact of the test kit chemistry. Compare to what a genuine detection of ~0.5 ppm ammonia looks like below. There is no confusion or ambiguity.


There are some chemistry details on the formation of this low level test kit artifact (it's not just people's bad eyes getting fooled), but I'll save it for later.
The short answer is to simply interpret 0.1-0.2ppm readings as zero baseline the same way a slight blush of green on API should be read as zero.

Calibration data for the Hanna Kit is here in post #10

The hanna checker is 0.46 is that safety for fish ??

 

[Lasse]

If I use this calculator and salinity 35 psu, temperature 77 F and pH 8.1 will it give around 0.025 mg/L free NH3. It will not kill any fish.
But - if it a newly started aquarium - I personally would not put in fish (or any gill breathing animals) before I has done some following up measurements during 2 - 3 days and see if the trend is stable, up or downward. In my mature aquarium NH3+NH4 is normally around 0.04 with my Hanna Marine Master - same methods that is used in the checker.

Other people will probably advise you differently but there is a few parameters where I want both braces and a waist belt to feel secure. NH3 is one of those where I want the trend to be stable or down. However - is not so much the actual number I relay on - its the trend.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Mr Phu]

If I use this calculator and salinity 35 psu, temperature 77 F and pH 8.1 will it give around 0.025 mg/L free NH3. It will not kill any fish.
But - if it a newly started aquarium - I personally would not put in fish (or any gill breathing animals) before I has done some following up measurements during 2 - 3 days and see if the trend is stable, up or downward. In my mature aquarium NH3+NH4 is normally around 0.04.

Other people will probably advise you differently but there is a few parameters where I want both braces and a waist belt to feel secure. NH3 is one of those where I want the trend to be stable or down. However - is not so much the actual number I relay on - its the trend.

Sincerely Lasse

The fishes been there 16 dat already i use 3 liter matrix from 3 year tank and 3 liter seeded for 20 day to control ammonia . They have 4 anthias inthere TAN ammonia around 0.17 to 0.22 now they suddenly up to 0.46 i just change 50% water and now is 0.31