Dunno what the heck has gone on with my previous post but can’t be arsed to edit it.
Anecdotal information has surpassed formal peer review for reefing procedural influence
- Thread starter brandon429
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terraincognita
Valuable Member
arsed or asked?
here's a nice **** for ya
I think I got him heated when I called him mean, in a thread where someone asked about what to do with old sand, and I made a comment about no study into tap water rinses, and the maintaining of micro fauna and beneficial bacterium surviving through them.
I never said they don't work to re-use old sand, but hinted maybe there's a better way (the way I've done it and now recommended to someone one time), and he got a little huffy :-(. He was acting a bit like I said "his method wasn't a good method." Even though I never said that.
Goaway
10K Club member
I can't post 3 reactions to this or I would. Bravo!arsed or asked?
here's a nice **** for ya
I think I got him heated when I called him mean, in a thread where someone asked about what to do with old sand, and I made a comment about no study into tap water rinses, and the maintaining of micro fauna and beneficial bacterium surviving through them.
I never said they don't work to re-use old sand, but hinted maybe there's a better way (the way I've done it and now recommended to someone one time), and he got a little huffy :-( like I said his method wasn't a good method. Even though I never said that.
That’s **S, I said ****, as in what faeces comes out of 
Edit - Your gonna have to add your own words, as this site blocks my original.
Edit - Your gonna have to add your own words, as this site blocks my original.
Are we just ;Troll ing? haha!
Azedenkae
Valuable Member
Sounds about right. XD He does get very huffy whenever there is even an inkling that someone thinks his method is bad. Even if... that's not the case.arsed or asked?
here's a nice **** for ya
I think I got him heated when I called him mean, in a thread where someone asked about what to do with old sand, and I made a comment about no study into tap water rinses, and the maintaining of micro fauna and beneficial bacterium surviving through them.
I never said they don't work to re-use old sand, but hinted maybe there's a better way (the way I've done it and now recommended to someone one time), and he got a little huffy :-(. He was acting a bit like I said "his method wasn't a good method." Even though I never said that.
I’m really annoyed
dunno, have you got an API test that we can just ignore. I’m surprised Brandon ain’t been hunted down for talking crap about them.
OP
OP
keeping you four Terra/Aze/Garf/Lowell on topic is like trying to herd four jaded cats.
now that you decided to pop in the thread, yes I distinctly recall you mentioning that without formal papers a claim made based on myriad post details collected was invalid. Looks like this is an ideal place to investigate... so if you care to rehash anything link your threads of concern and we'll re review, in this context.
Or, as in fifth request, you could introduce thoughtful material that's new that we could discuss. I have low expectations for the weighty anchors of the thread... perhaps a new reader will add something of light. Appreciation to the two thoughtful posters in the thought process.
now that you decided to pop in the thread, yes I distinctly recall you mentioning that without formal papers a claim made based on myriad post details collected was invalid. Looks like this is an ideal place to investigate... so if you care to rehash anything link your threads of concern and we'll re review, in this context.
Or, as in fifth request, you could introduce thoughtful material that's new that we could discuss. I have low expectations for the weighty anchors of the thread... perhaps a new reader will add something of light. Appreciation to the two thoughtful posters in the thought process.
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OP
OP
Let's look into tank transfer biology
someone link here an article or a procedure that deals with safe tank transfers.
There are two types of attachments you can make: one is from an author who moved his or her tank successfully and wrote about it as an instruction for future moves.
the other is any collection you can find on the web, from any year, that involves simple proofs of moves and safe transfer technique using other's aquariums. Something where a unique move tank approach has been tested out using pass/fail from other people's tanks and long term follow ups.
*this allows for you to link your own tank move threads you've completed for others.
from what you can find in books or the internet, does reef tank transfer have a large anecdotal study to provide safe procedure, or are there formal peer-reviewed works that make a better roadmap?
someone link here an article or a procedure that deals with safe tank transfers.
There are two types of attachments you can make: one is from an author who moved his or her tank successfully and wrote about it as an instruction for future moves.
the other is any collection you can find on the web, from any year, that involves simple proofs of moves and safe transfer technique using other's aquariums. Something where a unique move tank approach has been tested out using pass/fail from other people's tanks and long term follow ups.
*this allows for you to link your own tank move threads you've completed for others.
from what you can find in books or the internet, does reef tank transfer have a large anecdotal study to provide safe procedure, or are there formal peer-reviewed works that make a better roadmap?
Last edited:
OP
OP
current running tally of methods and etiology:
1. pico reefs, 100% anecdote discovered solely in forums. Am not speaking about 1970's oceanic studies where anemones were held in jars of scooped up saltwater, am talking about plating sps onto the walls and rocks of a pico reef usually with synthetic salt water mixes / new coral mass adhered in actual reef building that was not there originally. Formal studies have assumed use of pico reefs now well after establishment using informal means.
2. Dinoflagellates work, in the aquarium. Still tbd regarding formal/informal methods to address invasion. Leaning towards informally-discovered techniques (blackouts, peroxide, UV, param balancing) most university work on dinos is for ocean studies, it seems forums do the bulk of the work for tank issues. Link any formal reef tank studies on dinoflagellates pls if anyone finds any.
3. Nitrite impacts in reefing. Randy deserves credit for relaying the basic chemistry of chloride channel blocking/overall safety neutrality of nitrite in reefing whether its positive or not in the sample. Its well-known that early nitrate testing is impacted by nitrite presence; the neutrality is to your animals, they're not affected by nitrite presence in a reef tank.
All formal studies exclude reef tanks and reef tank cycling, and include ld50 lethality presses where groups of various fish were dosed with nitrite until they died. When we are told to factor nitrite in a reef tank, those links arise, and purchases are made in response.
What forums/informality brings to the table was the ability to get thousands of cycling aquarists to post updates in nitrite-positive reefs to be able to track out Randy's assertion of its general neutrality in the levels a reef tank will see.
Talk about market impact: reef tank cyclers who believe nitrite will stall a cycle are buying bottle bac in droves, adding it to already cycled tanks, thousands of dollars wasted. Nitrite impact/non impact and remediation is among the top drivers of sales in the industry. Prime was sold to thousands of folks to help with nitrite issues, but we have a prime study from the chemistry forum and we now also have a practical look at nitrite effects in real reef tanks. quite a pattern to check out for anyone interested.
4. The effects or placebo effect of Prime when aiming to detoxify free ammonia or nitrite in the reef tank. You have Taricha and Dan's study from the prior page to draw your assumptions about validity. This is a massive massive market influence... the sale of Prime for an intended use. Chemists who apply strong science in informal settings apparently make amazing discoveries from time to time, and reading their work will save you money
www.reef2reef.com
5. Peroxide
100% suppressed in any study of it in reef tanks from nearly every chemist back in 2010, though they may appear friendly about it now lol. Forums not only did all the discovery work, they did it against a gradient of suppression/banning and seated it in as a permanent reefing tool, not a fad. RtR never had the suppression problem, we can see Troylee's thread developed in 2010. Nano-reef.com was very supportive, that's why they have threads going back that long out to a hundred pages of testing/patterns you can view
We can thank solely forum work, Justin C. et al, for showing you tank-saving peroxide tricks. If the chemists had it their way a decade ago, you'd never know about it as a useful reef additive whatsoever. Sorry to use a general term> when I say chemist I mean any person who ever took a single chemistry class at any time in life, that's who pressed against peroxide use in the old days. Peroxide study isn't done developing, just recently we began collecting seneye nh3 studies where adding peroxide *boosted* nitrification rates, yet recent published reports from lab studies / again not in a reef tank / said it harmed nitrification. This is informality vs formality in evolution; peroxide isn't done working its way truthfully into reefing.
We at least have Troylee's fifty pages to inspect for harm. The context of a reef tank is required to remark upon peroxide actions in a reef tank vs a slide or a glass box of water.
6. The study of fish disease treatment and prep
one of the most pressing issues for the hobby; thousands of ready-cyclers show up at lfs and buy/install myriad mixed fish, to build the reefs they see in master's posts. Some malady takes them out by month eight, they post by the second a new help thread in the disease forum, you're seeing mass wasting live time. There have been both formal and informal contributions to fish medication and assist, lots of the meds and levels/duration were known to zoos and production facilities and have all kinds of formal scrutiny. And then techniques honed by HumbleFish and others discovered pattern out of web tests
7. Periods of striving for zero phosphate and nitrate in the hobby vs periods of balancing/increasing levels
There are formal studies galore regarding parameter impacts on coloration of corals and systemic balances related to nitrate and phosphate levels (and availability) so it seems formal studies knew about this a while ago and we're using trending to establish reef tank procedure.
8. Fluconazole
is reef flux selling? this seems to be a massive market shifter. was fluconazole's action on plant hormones / cellular structures found by happenstance dosing in forums from someone who had the med, or was it university studied/botanical science already knew and the application to reefing was an easy next step
to be determined, I don't know where fluconazole dosing originated but would like to know.
9. Reef Tank transfer biology
this is a million-dollar plus market driver. Look at Rev's latest big thread on Upcoming Reef upgrades...that's a million bucks of work coming just in the first two pages (to move a twenty thousand dollar sps tank into another new tank and not kill the system has value, tangible value and it adds up fast)
People who upgrade tanks will either pay a lfs to engineer the biology and the work load approach, or they'll hop online and consult forums for best practices.
anyone reading, link any material on safe reef tank transfer procedure you know of or can find and especially have produced. If you were going to initiate this upgrade, which way would you choose and why/proof/what sold you
10. HomebroodExotics mentions the classic api accuracy debate
whether or not reef tanks can carry .25 or .5 free ammonia for days/months/years is a big market driver, see above regarding reactive nitrite purchases. Multiply that false sales driver effect threefold for free ammonia concerns. Go google: "stalled reef aquarium cycle" and you get an ad for bottle bac. ten thousand clicks a day, every day, right out of the factory.
This thread is meant to have you all discuss market drivers with me, not rehash recent beef
11. new cycling science vs old cycling science
this is a massive, massive market affecting work going on solely in forums. Formal training directly lists on paper and in peer published research that nitrite presence will stall a cycle. a stalled cycle implies ready date not avail; a consequence if you begin anyway, you can't add fish to a stalled cycle as they burn and die and dart and twist in clear discomfort. A risk, a price for noncompliance (having any nitrite present during a cycle) I have tracked out a thousand posts that show a reactionary purchase of extra bottle bac in relation to a positive nitrite test. links are available.
so someone here reading post us a single link of a failed fish+ bottle bac cycle, where you can clearly see the pain and loss from being in a half cycled reef. accepting one link any link you can find.
see how far back you're having to look for the consequence to a bad cycle? That's because we're all taught this consequence that drives a click that drives a sale.
You sure have a LOT of reef conventions who all start on time for twenty years. If all those tanks needed a 30 day wait, a dead cocktail shrimp and zero nitrite, I hope your study materials will show us how those tanks were all present and ready on the same friday.
maybe the same materials will show when quick cycle setups undo and fail to carry ammonia as they did originally, they'll show when a cycle starves itself out or if that's ever happened. most cyclers feel a skip cycle is a short-changed cycle, with an expiry date (as if they keep fifty grand in bounces in a reef ready to expire lol)
Now you're studying new cycling information vs old. the difference between the two moves markets and procedure MASSIVELY within the hobby. Can a cycle stall? Has Prime saved a million reefs from crash, or zero? market-moving anecdotal science.
Old cycling science never provides a determined clear can-start date, they wait open-ended for perfect 3 parameter API master test kit compliance. and if it says .25, you can bet your pants the system isn't ready it'll kill fish, wait longer even if you miss the start date for the convention. Show positive nitrite on API? wait longer
But no convention skip cycler ever missed a full tank setup, a complete reef by Friday running as long as you want it to run
so do they use old or new cycling science? what kind do forum posters/click targets use? The real risk in today's marine tank cycle is issue #6 from above, the ammonia is going to be fine no matter how you approach it (also see Taricha and Dan's Prime study for supporting proof)
new cycling science comes from the internet and from pattern inspection and accountability and its free and it never leads back to a purchase, it leads back to a trust that water bac in water got this.
12. Awaiting creative input
1. pico reefs, 100% anecdote discovered solely in forums. Am not speaking about 1970's oceanic studies where anemones were held in jars of scooped up saltwater, am talking about plating sps onto the walls and rocks of a pico reef usually with synthetic salt water mixes / new coral mass adhered in actual reef building that was not there originally. Formal studies have assumed use of pico reefs now well after establishment using informal means.
2. Dinoflagellates work, in the aquarium. Still tbd regarding formal/informal methods to address invasion. Leaning towards informally-discovered techniques (blackouts, peroxide, UV, param balancing) most university work on dinos is for ocean studies, it seems forums do the bulk of the work for tank issues. Link any formal reef tank studies on dinoflagellates pls if anyone finds any.
3. Nitrite impacts in reefing. Randy deserves credit for relaying the basic chemistry of chloride channel blocking/overall safety neutrality of nitrite in reefing whether its positive or not in the sample. Its well-known that early nitrate testing is impacted by nitrite presence; the neutrality is to your animals, they're not affected by nitrite presence in a reef tank.
All formal studies exclude reef tanks and reef tank cycling, and include ld50 lethality presses where groups of various fish were dosed with nitrite until they died. When we are told to factor nitrite in a reef tank, those links arise, and purchases are made in response.
What forums/informality brings to the table was the ability to get thousands of cycling aquarists to post updates in nitrite-positive reefs to be able to track out Randy's assertion of its general neutrality in the levels a reef tank will see.
Talk about market impact: reef tank cyclers who believe nitrite will stall a cycle are buying bottle bac in droves, adding it to already cycled tanks, thousands of dollars wasted. Nitrite impact/non impact and remediation is among the top drivers of sales in the industry. Prime was sold to thousands of folks to help with nitrite issues, but we have a prime study from the chemistry forum and we now also have a practical look at nitrite effects in real reef tanks. quite a pattern to check out for anyone interested.
4. The effects or placebo effect of Prime when aiming to detoxify free ammonia or nitrite in the reef tank. You have Taricha and Dan's study from the prior page to draw your assumptions about validity. This is a massive massive market influence... the sale of Prime for an intended use. Chemists who apply strong science in informal settings apparently make amazing discoveries from time to time, and reading their work will save you money
Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?
This started when @Dan_P was looking at measuring NH3 with seneye and was curious about performance near zero NH3. I suggested trying Prime to artificially zero out the NH3 sensor, and the results were weird... so I checked with my seachem kit. Prime by Seachem is commonly used to treat tap...
www.reef2reef.com
5. Peroxide
100% suppressed in any study of it in reef tanks from nearly every chemist back in 2010, though they may appear friendly about it now lol. Forums not only did all the discovery work, they did it against a gradient of suppression/banning and seated it in as a permanent reefing tool, not a fad. RtR never had the suppression problem, we can see Troylee's thread developed in 2010. Nano-reef.com was very supportive, that's why they have threads going back that long out to a hundred pages of testing/patterns you can view
We can thank solely forum work, Justin C. et al, for showing you tank-saving peroxide tricks. If the chemists had it their way a decade ago, you'd never know about it as a useful reef additive whatsoever. Sorry to use a general term> when I say chemist I mean any person who ever took a single chemistry class at any time in life, that's who pressed against peroxide use in the old days. Peroxide study isn't done developing, just recently we began collecting seneye nh3 studies where adding peroxide *boosted* nitrification rates, yet recent published reports from lab studies / again not in a reef tank / said it harmed nitrification. This is informality vs formality in evolution; peroxide isn't done working its way truthfully into reefing.
We at least have Troylee's fifty pages to inspect for harm. The context of a reef tank is required to remark upon peroxide actions in a reef tank vs a slide or a glass box of water.
6. The study of fish disease treatment and prep
one of the most pressing issues for the hobby; thousands of ready-cyclers show up at lfs and buy/install myriad mixed fish, to build the reefs they see in master's posts. Some malady takes them out by month eight, they post by the second a new help thread in the disease forum, you're seeing mass wasting live time. There have been both formal and informal contributions to fish medication and assist, lots of the meds and levels/duration were known to zoos and production facilities and have all kinds of formal scrutiny. And then techniques honed by HumbleFish and others discovered pattern out of web tests
7. Periods of striving for zero phosphate and nitrate in the hobby vs periods of balancing/increasing levels
There are formal studies galore regarding parameter impacts on coloration of corals and systemic balances related to nitrate and phosphate levels (and availability) so it seems formal studies knew about this a while ago and we're using trending to establish reef tank procedure.
8. Fluconazole
is reef flux selling? this seems to be a massive market shifter. was fluconazole's action on plant hormones / cellular structures found by happenstance dosing in forums from someone who had the med, or was it university studied/botanical science already knew and the application to reefing was an easy next step
to be determined, I don't know where fluconazole dosing originated but would like to know.
9. Reef Tank transfer biology
this is a million-dollar plus market driver. Look at Rev's latest big thread on Upcoming Reef upgrades...that's a million bucks of work coming just in the first two pages (to move a twenty thousand dollar sps tank into another new tank and not kill the system has value, tangible value and it adds up fast)
People who upgrade tanks will either pay a lfs to engineer the biology and the work load approach, or they'll hop online and consult forums for best practices.
anyone reading, link any material on safe reef tank transfer procedure you know of or can find and especially have produced. If you were going to initiate this upgrade, which way would you choose and why/proof/what sold you
10. HomebroodExotics mentions the classic api accuracy debate
whether or not reef tanks can carry .25 or .5 free ammonia for days/months/years is a big market driver, see above regarding reactive nitrite purchases. Multiply that false sales driver effect threefold for free ammonia concerns. Go google: "stalled reef aquarium cycle" and you get an ad for bottle bac. ten thousand clicks a day, every day, right out of the factory.
This thread is meant to have you all discuss market drivers with me, not rehash recent beef
11. new cycling science vs old cycling science
this is a massive, massive market affecting work going on solely in forums. Formal training directly lists on paper and in peer published research that nitrite presence will stall a cycle. a stalled cycle implies ready date not avail; a consequence if you begin anyway, you can't add fish to a stalled cycle as they burn and die and dart and twist in clear discomfort. A risk, a price for noncompliance (having any nitrite present during a cycle) I have tracked out a thousand posts that show a reactionary purchase of extra bottle bac in relation to a positive nitrite test. links are available.
so someone here reading post us a single link of a failed fish+ bottle bac cycle, where you can clearly see the pain and loss from being in a half cycled reef. accepting one link any link you can find.
see how far back you're having to look for the consequence to a bad cycle? That's because we're all taught this consequence that drives a click that drives a sale.
You sure have a LOT of reef conventions who all start on time for twenty years. If all those tanks needed a 30 day wait, a dead cocktail shrimp and zero nitrite, I hope your study materials will show us how those tanks were all present and ready on the same friday.
maybe the same materials will show when quick cycle setups undo and fail to carry ammonia as they did originally, they'll show when a cycle starves itself out or if that's ever happened. most cyclers feel a skip cycle is a short-changed cycle, with an expiry date (as if they keep fifty grand in bounces in a reef ready to expire lol)
Now you're studying new cycling information vs old. the difference between the two moves markets and procedure MASSIVELY within the hobby. Can a cycle stall? Has Prime saved a million reefs from crash, or zero? market-moving anecdotal science.
Old cycling science never provides a determined clear can-start date, they wait open-ended for perfect 3 parameter API master test kit compliance. and if it says .25, you can bet your pants the system isn't ready it'll kill fish, wait longer even if you miss the start date for the convention. Show positive nitrite on API? wait longer
But no convention skip cycler ever missed a full tank setup, a complete reef by Friday running as long as you want it to run
so do they use old or new cycling science? what kind do forum posters/click targets use? The real risk in today's marine tank cycle is issue #6 from above, the ammonia is going to be fine no matter how you approach it (also see Taricha and Dan's Prime study for supporting proof)
new cycling science comes from the internet and from pattern inspection and accountability and its free and it never leads back to a purchase, it leads back to a trust that water bac in water got this.
12. Awaiting creative input
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gray808
Active Member
Most peer-reviewed papers are a nearly impenetrable wall of text and numbers, eventually followed by "see, I proved X". Most times, I don't even see how they got to X or X was never mentioned. (Speaking purely of reef-tank-oriented stuff.)
Link to the peer reviews you are talking about.
Just more random conjecture.
In your example, how it should go is:
1. "you cannot keep mixed LPS and SPS in a pico reef..." - some/many peer reviewed journal.
2. Someone in Utah makes a pico reef that lasts 20 years with mixed LPS and SPS.
3. Peer reviewed journal was obviously wrong.
But more likely peer reviewed journal had absolutely nothing to say about pico reefs, and was solely focused on open ocean real world reefs, and people misconstrued it (see impenetrable wall of text), so that it became "everyone knows you can't keep SPS/LPS in a pico!".
--Gray
BroccoliFarmer
10K Club member
I keep looking for a peer reviewed scientific research paper on the detrimental effects of me pooping in my aquarium. Nada
OP
OP
Most of post #31 summary constitutes direct personal experience except fish disease part
thanks for posting / the bump
do you have any specific topics to add we haven’t discussed yet, anything informal in addition to post #31 that you use or have used
thanks for posting / the bump
do you have any specific topics to add we haven’t discussed yet, anything informal in addition to post #31 that you use or have used
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OP
OP
Here’s a very big one I just came across
note down at the bottom where the reef sage says carbon dosing is bunk
20 yrs later, hows carbon dosing holding up
imagine if he was asked about peroxide dosing, if it has any known utility that will make it a permanent reefing tool one day soon
readers: feel free to post examples where informal claims won a stronghold over formal practices of the day
note down at the bottom where the reef sage says carbon dosing is bunk
20 yrs later, hows carbon dosing holding up
imagine if he was asked about peroxide dosing, if it has any known utility that will make it a permanent reefing tool one day soon
readers: feel free to post examples where informal claims won a stronghold over formal practices of the day
tehmadreefer
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