Another Dino Request!

[simecircle]

Hi

Forgive me if this has been covered extensively in multiple threads; I have looked across many of them including the big ones on specific types of amphidinium and found some contradiction. My question is have I diagnosed correctly and am I doing the right things (see below)?

I am fairly confident the problem I am facing is amphidinium (please see attached video); it manifests purely on the sand and disappears over night, but in one of the threads someone stated these do not appear "snotty or stringy" (amphidinium specifically), which mine kind of do. They don't at the moment, as for the last couple of weeks I have been syphoning them out every day and right now, at the beginning of my morning there is no visible evidence there, but they very much did before this and I know at the end of the day I will start to see a dust, initially and left to their own devices they will revert back to said "stringiness". So this is what I have been doing:

- syphoning the bacteria off the surface of the sand
- stopped feeding my Duncan and Acans with Reef Rhoids, having read the Dinos love them
- stopped water changes. While I can trace the beginning of this issue back to a period in June/ July where I had less than 0.5ppm nitrates according to my "low range" Red Sea kit, even feeding more and has only taken me to around 3ppm and 0.1 phosphates (Hanna), so I have been passing eater through 1 micron filter socks when I syphon and putting it straight back in
- I actually started taking the sand out with the water changes (where the dinos are - they do not appear in the shadow of my rock arch)
- I was considering dosing with Silica, but don't know what product to use to create a diatom bloom
- I have some Microbacter 7

So my questions are:

1/ Do I definitely have amphidinium or something else?
2/ Can I put the sand back at any point? If it dries or I wash it in RODI water, will the dinos survive in it? I prefer a sandy bottom to my tank, aesthetically, plus I have a nassarius snail I am very fond of.
3/ Might completely removing the sand from anywhere that isn't sheltered by rock completely fix the issue? (nassarius seems to bury himself there anyway)
4/ Is there anything else I can feed the corals? My Duncan has been growing three new heads that seem to have slowed down somewhat.
5/ Raising the nitrates of the tank seems to have caused a rather handsome mushroom to shrink a little. How does one rationalise the advice for "ultra low nutrients" for corals with "raise them to kill dinos"
6/ I live in the UK and can't seem to find any Sponge Excel. If I am to dose silica, is there an alternative?
7/ Does the Microbacter have a shelf life? I bought it a couple of months ago - should I even use it?


I think that's it? Please forgive all the questions!

 

[i cant think]

So, for some reason the video won’t work but can you get a picture of the bacteria?
However what you’re describing sounds like dinos and how I combatted them was by:

- getting an algae eater (well- two)
- Watcher changes (I siphoned the top of the sand bed but not further down)
- Waited for a few weeks to see if they returned and 20 months later they have never appeared again (they were around for 1 month)

 

[simecircle]

So, for some reason the video won’t work but can you get a picture of the bacteria?
However what you’re describing sounds like dinos and how I combatted them was by:

- getting an algae eater (well- two)
- Watcher changes (I siphoned the top of the sand bed but not further down)
- Waited for a few weeks to see if they returned and 20 months later they have never appeared again (they were around for 1 month)

Strange. It does seem to work for me? I've attached a screenshot. Basically it's like this, but they are moving.

Thanks so much for the response, very appreciated, but it does a touch contradict advice I have seen elsewhere. I have seen multiple people state that all dinos thrive in conditions of low nitrates and so water changes should be avoided to allow the levels to creep up to a little more than zero.

I've also seen that they effectively burrow into the sand bed at night and removing the sand completely is an option.

Lastly, I have several algae eaters. It's a small tank, but I have a turbo snail and two trochus as well as a little algae eating crab. The turbo snail, when I got him absolutely stripped the rocks of any algae, but he doesn't touch the dinos. I have read that they aren't really the fix for dinos. Forgive me, but are you sure you had dinos and not diatoms? I read they are a lot more problematic. I actually understand that the idea of dosing silica is to replace dinos with diatoms, which are a lot more easy to rid yourself of.

 

[simecircle]

Ah, well, I can only assume my questions are too plentiful, my subject too boring (and covered elsewhere) and my words too abundant to be successful in getting an answer.

Would it be possible, though for someone just to confirm my belief that it is Amphidinium dinos I am looking at?

thanks so much

 

[i cant think]

Ah, well, I can only assume my questions are too plentiful, my subject too boring (and covered elsewhere) and my words too abundant to be successful in getting an answer.

Would it be possible, though for someone just to confirm my belief that it is Amphidinium dinos I am looking at?

thanks so much

I’m ever so sorry, however yes it looks like amphidinium dinos, and yeah I’m sure I had dinos. They looked just like the way you’re describing and ever since we put the Foxface & Ctenochaetus tang in the tank they have never returned, some how water changed worked to battle it, I haven’t had to battle dinos yet in a nano tank it’s just been cyano that’s been the issue in my nano tank but the big tank has had a battle with dinos

 

[i cant think]

Also, I think the reason why the dinos don’t appear in the shadows from what I’ve seen in their growth is they’re like cyano and need light to help spread

 

[ReefRusty]

Im currently battling exactly the same, onto day 3 of my blackout. Will sus it out in the morning. Had a peak and sand looks very pristine white. But it was when the lights came on is when I had this issue so time will tell.

Nitrates are stable at 10 and phosphate 0.04

Hope you have some luck and make sure you keep us updated as will I

 

[simecircle]

I’m ever so sorry, however yes it looks like amphidinium dinos, and yeah I’m sure I had dinos. They looked just like the way you’re describing and ever since we put the Foxface & Ctenochaetus tang in the tank they have never returned, some how water changed worked to battle it, I haven’t had to battle dinos yet in a nano tank it’s just been cyano that’s been the issue in my nano tank but the big tank has had a battle with dinos

Please don't apologise - I meant no impatience, nor entitlement. I'm very grateful for your response!!

Thanks for the response. Sadly those fish wouldn't be a good fit for my small tank, but I shall continue with my battle. I can say I can barely notice them this morning, but I wouldn't mind a time when I don't have to syphon them off the sand every day!

 

[simecircle]

Im currently battling exactly the same, onto day 3 of my blackout. Will sus it out in the morning. Had a peak and sand looks very pristine white. But it was when the lights came on is when I had this issue so time will tell.

Nitrates are stable at 10 and phosphate 0.04

Hope you have some luck and make sure you keep us updated as will I

Thanks so much for the response. Along with the other courses I found and have taken myself, I saw that a few days of blackout is recommended quite a lot.

May I ask a couple of questions:

1/ How are you actually doing that? Aside from turning out the lights, do you wrap the tank in anything to stop natural light getting in?
2/ Do you have any corals that this might be damaging to? How are they handling it?

In my ongoing trawling of threads I found a poster this morning who had tried most of above and just decided to put up with them, as amphidinium are not toxic as much as other varieties (although he/ she did mention a tiger conch will get stomach aches from them) and didn't affect the corals on the rocks at all.

Thanks again!

 

[Chrisv.]

I had a pretty gross dino outbreak in my 15g this past summer. I had previously shut down a tank due to dinos, so i was mortified.


i did four things. I’m not sure which worked but my rocks have never been cleaher In any tank (since 1997!)

1) I bought a nano 5 watt up sterilizer from Amazon. I have it on a controller to turn off if the tank temp gets too high.
2) I started dosing vibrant.
3) I did the Dr. Tim’s Dino treatment (directions on his website. it’s two different bacteria cultures that you dose). The first step of this is to black out the tank for like four days. I literally wrapped my tank in aluminum foil.
4) as dinos subsided, algae came in. I added a chestnut turbo snail, which is the most voracious algae eater I have ever seen. I have astrea, trochus, verity, nerite, others…. But specifically the Mexican turbo snail does basically all of the heavy lifting.

 

[ReefRusty]

Thanks so much for the response. Along with the other courses I found and have taken myself, I saw that a few days of blackout is recommended quite a lot.

May I ask a couple of questions:

1/ How are you actually doing that? Aside from turning out the lights, do you wrap the tank in anything to stop natural light getting in?
2/ Do you have any corals that this might be damaging to? How are they handling it?

In my ongoing trawling of threads I found a poster this morning who had tried most of above and just decided to put up with them, as amphidinium are not toxic as much as other varieties (although he/ she did mention a tiger conch will get stomach aches from them) and didn't affect the corals on the rocks at all.

Thanks again!

No worries yes lots of reading then my LFS recommended 3 day blackout, it will tick my corals off but 3 days shouldn't do any harm.. however I am prepared for the worst hopefully they all make it. Did look today and most appeared to be opened(hammers and torches ect...

Yes complete blackout wrapped tank up and over the light to give it the space for breathing. Absolutely no light into the tank hoping to starve the dinos.

 

[Chrisv.]

Oh, another thing I did: I do not run a skimmer on my tank, so I decided to add an airstone to the display while treating. This allowed me to wrap in foil extra tightly.

 

[i cant think]

When I turn out the lights to deal with cyano I don’t do anything to the tank except feed the fish, I also have one ‘small’ Florida ricordea in the same tank and I just feed it with coral food (in small amounts)

 

[simecircle]

I had a pretty gross dino outbreak in my 15g this past summer. I had previously shut down a tank due to dinos, so i was mortified.


i did four things. I’m not sure which worked but my rocks have never been cleaher In any tank (since 1997!)

1) I bought a nano 5 watt up sterilizer from Amazon. I have it on a controller to turn off if the tank temp gets too high.
2) I started dosing vibrant.
3) I did the Dr. Tim’s Dino treatment (directions on his website. it’s two different bacteria cultures that you dose). The first step of this is to black out the tank for like four days. I literally wrapped my tank in aluminum foil.
4) as dinos subsided, algae came in. I added a chestnut turbo snail, which is the most voracious algae eater I have ever seen. I have astrea, trochus, verity, nerite, others…. But specifically the Mexican turbo snail does basically all of the heavy lifting.

Thanks for the reply! Do you know what type you had? I nearly bought one, but I have read UV sterlizers are not the best for amphidinium.

Do you have corals that were affected by the blackout? This is what mostly worries me about that particular course.

I have a Mexican turbo snail and it is extra-ordinary. I can definitely see other algaes on the rocks, but this thing totally strips them overnight. I am loathe to purchase any more CUC (I have two Trochus and a beautiful pin cushion urchin) as at this stage if I get diatoms or anything else to replace my dinos, I have confidence he'll see it off!

 

[simecircle]

No worries yes lots of reading then my LFS recommended 3 day blackout, it will tick my corals off but 3 days shouldn't do any harm.. however I am prepared for the worst hopefully they all make it. Did look today and most appeared to be opened(hammers and torches ect...

Yes complete blackout wrapped tank up and over the light to give it the space for breathing. Absolutely no light into the tank hoping to starve the dinos.

Interesting! I am going to try a couple of the other things before I get to that. I have read multiple people suggesting taking the sand out completely, which I am kind of doing outside of areas that have shade from rocks and also dosing silica to promote a diatom bloom that evidently sees of the dinos.

Reminds me of the little old woman who swallowed a fly!!

 

[simecircle]

When I turn out the lights to deal with cyano I don’t do anything to the tank except feed the fish, I also have one ‘small’ Florida ricordea in the same tank and I just feed it with

Thanks.- I suppose I could just turn the lights out without wrapping the tank. Feels a little less drastic.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Its amphi
Prepare by starting with a water change and blow this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles.
Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10-15%) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off.
During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as bacter 7) per 10 gallons.
Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED CORAL FOODS OR ADD NOPOX as it is food for dinos.
Day 5,, you can start with blue lights - ramping up and work your white lights up slowly

 

[dwest]

Could be amphidinium but I don’t see the traditional “beaks” of amphidinium. I’m wondering if they are prorocentrum . @taricha?

Dinoflagellate Identification Guide

I've had this laying around for a while. Had some recent interest, so I tweaked it a bit and am posting it. Not really about cures just ID pictures, videos, and a few short facts. Hope it can be helpful.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[simecircle]

Could be amphidinium but I don’t see the traditional “beaks” of amphidinium. I’m wondering if they are prorocentrum . @taricha?

Dinoflagellate Identification Guide

I've had this laying around for a while. Had some recent interest, so I tweaked it a bit and am posting it. Not really about cures just ID pictures, videos, and a few short facts. Hope it can be helpful.

www.reef2reef.com

Aaaargh!!

I had completely convinced myself, but that document very much throws my mind into confusion. I have mostly spotted them on the sand, which led me to believe they must be amphidinium, but am now wondering if I am just not looking closely enough at the rocks!

My microscope does not make it easy to take photos. I'll take a look at all the ones I ahve managed in the last few weeks and see if I can see any "beaks".

Thanks so much!

@taricha, this document was authored by yourself? Firstly, thanks for such a useful article and secondly, if you care to give your opinion on what I have shared so far, it would be gratefully received!!

 

[aSaltyKlown]

While keeping the nitrate and phosphate levels in check these are not the end-all. Dinos are bacteria and are beating out other forms of bac. I'd suggest Dr. Tims's method. There are many methods out there and some work some don't. However, it never hurts to try other methods as folks do have success with them. It really depends on each individual tank.

I spent many months trying different methods to get rid of Amphidinium (Large-Cell). I tried UV, raise temp, dosing silicates, Microbacter 7, phyto, Microbe-Lift, peroxide, and blackouts, siphoning it all out and into a 5-micron sock, and reusing the water. I tried most things that were recommended. Nothing was working, so I eventually went with Dino-X. I followed the directions to a T and did 12 doses of DinoX and used just under the recommended dose as overdosing seems to be the biggest culprit of folks having issues with it. After the dinos were gone I did get cyano. I used Dr. Tim's treatment for the cyano and have not had any issues since and it's been 7 months. I still dose Waste Away and Refresh every two weeks. If they ever come back, I'll try Dr. Tim's Waste Away and Refresh method for them.