Anyone detect clear evidence of a fluoride effect?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Interesting that it trends toward 0.5ppm which is around my lowest, and coincides with other reports that it never bottoms out to zero.

@Randy Holmes-Farley Can the ICP OES/MS test to zero that you are aware of?

Oceamo seems to use both ICP-MS and ion chromatography for fluoride.

Christoph, can you comment on the quantitation of fluoride?

@Christoph

 

[Christoph]

Sure Randy,

we measure Fluoride with Anion-Chromatography. Fluoride can not be ionized or excitated in an argon plasma, so it cant be measured by ICP.

Find attached our repeatability data for fluoride (same day and day-to-day measurements).

The detction limit is in the range of 0,1 ppm (~mg/l). For sure fluoride can be measured between 0,1 and 0,5 ppm aswell, but as the graph above indicates uncertainty/spread is a bit higher when getting closer to the limit of detection.

All the best,
Christoph

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

we measure Fluoride with Anion-Chromatography. Fluoride can not be ionized or excitated in an argon plasma, so it cant be measured by ICP.

Thanks, Christoph. Your web site is a little confusing since you call the analysis that includes fluoride as "
ICP-MS seawater analysis", but I see now you mean that as a name of a service package, not an indication of the tool used.

We measure these parameters using ICP-MS seawater analysis:​

Basic parameters:​	Alkalinity (KH), Salinity, SAC254​
Bulk elements:​	boron, bromide, calcium, chloride, potassium, magnesium, sodium, strontium, sulphate​
Trace elements:​	barium, chromium,cobalt, caesium, iron, fluoride, iodium, copper, lithium, manganese, molybdenum, nickel, rubidium, selenium, vanadium, zinc, tin​
Pollutants:​	aluminium, antimony, arsenic, beryllium, bismuth, lead, cadmium, cerium, gallium, lanthanum, mercury, neodymium, thallium, tellurium, titanium, ruthenium, thorium, tungsten, uranium​
Nutrients:​	nitrate, nitrite, phosphate (photometric), silicon​

 

[Christoph]

Ah, yes, we might need to rephrase that.

Its meant as a "analysis package", that includes ICP-MS, anion IC, cation IC, photometric phosphate, SAK254 photometry, alkalinity titration and conductometry. Unfortunately a whole range of methods is required to gather all the data that can be helpful for reefkeeping.

BR,
Christoph

 

[Heres_doe_]

I'm just trying to understand what you are saying. You started the RM method and the only thing that was added to the husbandry practice was fluoride? Or you mean the whole RM method saved the corals?

I meant the whole rm method.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I meant the whole rm method.

OK, thanks.

 

[FranklinDattein]

Who claims that?

How could fluoride possibly stabilize iodide?

Claude from Fauna Marin. They discuss this on at 01:04:00

If you are short on time, this link will take you straight to the point and with a little AI summary of what he says :

Rappin' With ReefBum: Guest Claude Schuhmacher, Fauna Marin

In this episode of Rapping with Reef Bum, host Keith Berkelhammer interviews Claude Schumacher from Fauna Marine. They discuss the industry dynamics, innovations, and challenges facing reef keepers. Claude shares insights on the role of light, the significance of German-made aquarium products...

reef-chat.dattein.com

Pasted below as well:

• When the fluoride level is high, the iodine level is more stable, and nutrient levels tend to go down.
• Fluoride seems to have a stabilizing effect on iodine, similar to how magnesium stabilizes calcium and alkalinity.
• Fluoride also helps provide bacterias and allergies for growing corals, making them harder, just like how fluoride in toothpaste helps harden teeth.
• It's implied that having the right balance of fluoride and iodine is important, and that an imbalance can cause issues.

ps. The link is safe, it is my own web-site to find information in reefing videos.

 

[Reefahholic]

Ah, yes, we might need to rephrase that.

Its meant as a "analysis package", that includes ICP-MS, anion IC, cation IC, photometric phosphate, SAK254 photometry, alkalinity titration and conductometry. Unfortunately a whole range of methods is required to gather all the data that can be helpful for reefkeeping.

BR,
Christoph

Time to modify the website.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Claude from Fauna Marin. They discuss this on at 01:04:00

If you are short on time, this link will take you straight to the point and with a little AI summary of what he says :

Rappin' With ReefBum: Guest Claude Schuhmacher, Fauna Marin

In this episode of Rapping with Reef Bum, host Keith Berkelhammer interviews Claude Schumacher from Fauna Marine. They discuss the industry dynamics, innovations, and challenges facing reef keepers. Claude shares insights on the role of light, the significance of German-made aquarium products...

reef-chat.dattein.com

Pasted below as well:

• When the fluoride level is high, the iodine level is more stable, and nutrient levels tend to go down.
• Fluoride seems to have a stabilizing effect on iodine, similar to how magnesium stabilizes calcium and alkalinity.
• Fluoride also helps provide bacterias and allergies for growing corals, making them harder, just like how fluoride in toothpaste helps harden teeth.
• It's implied that having the right balance of fluoride and iodine is important, and that an imbalance can cause issues.

ps. The link is safe, it is my own web-site to find information in reefing videos.

Thank you. I watched that section.

So in summary, he does not provide any mechanism or reason that the claim (fluoride stabilizes iodine) would be true, and says as much. He essentially just says he sees a correlation between fluoride and iodine. The comment about it being similar to magnesium stabilization of calcium/alk is a meaningless analogy from a mechanistic perspective.

Before I get into it more, let me reiterate that there is nothing wrong that I am aware of with maintaining natural fluoride levels, except possibly wasting time and money. If you think it might be useful in your tank, go for it, and see for yourself. We have no clear evidence that it is harmful.

That said, let's poke a bit at his comments.

Fluoride "stabilizes" iodine levels. For discussion sake, let's accept that as true, although seeing evidence would be nice.

That "stabilization" actually means that maintaining fluoride reduces the uptake of iodine by something. Maybe just one organism that uses a lot of iodine, or maybe many organisms. There is no nonbiological sink for iodide or iodate in a reef tank, so one necessarily is impacting biological uptake.

What is the evidence that reducing organism uptake of iodine is a good thing rather than a bad thing, or perhaps an entirely neutral thing?

While most folks know I am not as convinced of the great merits of iodine as many in the reefing world are, if you accept that iodine is essential (as FM clearly states) then why would one presume that reducing the uptake of iodine is desirable?

 

[ReeferZ1227]

if you accept that iodine is essential (as FM clearly states) then why would one presume that reducing the uptake of iodine is desirable?

Im not saying theres merrit to FMs claims, but all i can say is my tank has objectively (from my seat) responded better to raising those two values, then not. As stated before I had raised Iodine from 30ppb to 100ppb, then flouride 2 months later from .6ppm to 1.5ppm. I noticed a greater impact raising flouride than iodine. The same is true for ammonia and concotion dosing, so i keep doing them.

Several other tanks that I personally admire, coincidentally do the same. Im sure theres some really nice tanks that dont, my population of tanks that I do is small.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Im not saying theres merrit to FMs claims, but all i can say is my tank has objectively (from my seat) responded better to raising those two values, then not. As stated before I had raised Iodine from 30ppb to 100ppb, then flouride 2 months later from .6ppm to 1.5ppm. I noticed a greater impact raising flouride than iodine. The same is true for ammonia and concotion dosing, so i keep doing them.

Several other tanks that I personally admire, coincidentally do the same. Im sure theres some really nice tanks that dont, my population of tanks that I do is small.

Thanks for the info. Did you find a change in the amount of iodine needed to dose to maintain a particular level when you started dosing fluoride?

 

[ReeferZ1227]

Thanks for the info. Did you find a change in the amount of iodine needed to dose to maintain a particular level when you started dosing fluoride?

My ICP just came back this AM actually. What ive found is i have bassically stopped dosing KI aside from whats in AFR and I added .25g into 1000mL/20g ammonium bicarbonate - and its still slightly increasing. Flourine is continuing to drop, i was back down to .7 after doing a 1ppm corrective dose and sporadically dosing 7-10mL roughly every other day.

Sample 7/9: https://lab.atiaquaristik.com/share/dc94db3a0e2fd0ba6413

Sample 8/29: https://lab.atiaquaristik.com/share/041eb59d94dcc4a6ea44

I have heard others discuss the idea that for iodine depleted tanks, it takes a good bit to elevate but once elevated it remains there. Perhaps whats happening is people who are dosing iodine are also dosing flouride and the flouride is reducing the uptake of iodine.

As of today, I have dosed approx 600mL of a 4.4g NaF/1000mL solution (Reef Lab Reef Mineral Flourine) into a ~120gal water volume, as of 8/29 we can say somewhere between 4-500mL or 1.93-2.42ppm since starting flouride dosing around 7/27-7/30.

For reference, a fairly heavily stocked 125 with a 25g frag tank tied in

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My ICP just came back this AM actually. What ive found is i have bassically stopped dosing KI aside from whats in AFR and I added .25g into 1000mL/20g ammonium bicarbonate - and its still slightly increasing. Flourine is continuing to drop, i was back down to .7 after doing a 1ppm corrective dose and sporadically dosing 7-10mL roughly every other day.

Sample 7/9: https://lab.atiaquaristik.com/share/dc94db3a0e2fd0ba6413

Sample 8/29: https://lab.atiaquaristik.com/share/041eb59d94dcc4a6ea44

I have heard others discuss the idea that for iodine depleted tanks, it takes a good bit to elevate but once elevated it remains there. Perhaps whats happening is people who are dosing iodine are also dosing flouride and the flouride is reducing the uptake of iodine.

As of today, I have dosed approx 600mL of a 4.4g NaF/1000mL solution (Reef Lab Reef Mineral Flourine) into a ~120gal water volume, as of 8/29 we can say somewhere between 4-500mL or 1.93-2.42ppm since starting flouride dosing around 7/27-7/30.

For reference, a fairly heavily stocked 125 with a 25g frag tank tied in

Thanks. I still do not see a rationale to think it is desirable to inhibit iodine uptake, but I recognize that may be what is happening in your tank. All the papers I could find on fluoride impact on iodine uptake were discussing how that effect causes problems in people and other organisms exposed to fluoride by indirectly inhibiting needed iodine uptake.

If it turns out to be generally true, I'd treat it is an observation of unknown consequence rather than a known benefit of fluoride maintenance.

 

[ReeferZ1227]

Thanks. I still do not see a rationale to think it is desirable to inhibit iodine uptake, but I recognize that may be what is happening in your tank. All the papers I could find on fluoride impact on iodine uptake were discussing how that effect causes problems in people and other organisms exposed to fluoride by indirectly inhibiting needed iodine uptake.

If it turns out to be generally true, I'd treat it is an observation of unknown consequence rather than a known benefit of fluoride maintenance.

Still begs the question where is all the flouride going?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Still begs the question where is all the flouride going?

IMO, it is clear that a lot of it gets deposited into skeletons and abiotic precipitated calcium carbonate. That is a well known process. It gets into the crystal in place of some of the carbonate.

 

[Hypnotize]

What I notice very often when I see tanks with STN from the base von Acropora is that ICP shows low flouride, it could be a coincidence but I see it more often than I would believe it to be an coincidence.

What I also very often see is tanks that use Kalkwasser have a higher demand in flourid, I suspected that it somehow precipitates it but that is just a theory of mine.

Overall I see healthier corals when I keep flourid close to natural seawater.

 

[ReeferZ1227]

What I notice very often when I see tanks with STN from the base von Acropora is that ICP shows low flouride, it could be a coincidence but I see it more often than I would believe it to be an coincidence.

What I also very often see is tanks that use Kalkwasser have a higher demand in flourid, I suspected that it somehow precipitates it but that is just a theory of mine.

Overall I see healthier corals when I keep flourid close to natural seawater.

I noticed my valida was experiencing STN innthe shaded area pretty good. Since dosing flouride most of the STN on the shaded area has algaed over and recession has noticably reduced. Ill take a photo later, i think i have a bef9re pic somewhere

 

[IntrinsicReef]

For me, flouride dosing has yielded a dramatic visual change in mainly blue Acropora. I have also noticed that the the white growth tips on some fast growing Acropora are smaller. The new growth seems to achieve normal coloration more quickly?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What I notice very often when I see tanks with STN from the base von Acropora is that ICP shows low flouride, it could be a coincidence but I see it more often than I would believe it to be an coincidence.

What I also very often see is tanks that use Kalkwasser have a higher demand in flourid, I suspected that it somehow precipitates it but that is just a theory of mine.

Overall I see healthier corals when I keep flourid close to natural seawater.

Tanks using kalkwasser will typically run higher in pH and likely have more abiotic and biological deposition of calcium carbonate, increasing demand for F- just as it would for magnesium and strontium.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Tanks using kalkwasser will typically run higher in pH and likely have more abiotic and biological deposition of calcium carbonate, increasing demand for F- just as it would for magnesium and strontium.

My question would be do increased flouride levels aid-in this process? In other words, at what point is it helping coral, vs just being used in, or to drive abiotic deposition? Just pouring money into making new rock, not growing coral tissue.