Anyone Run A Closed Loop With A Single Inlet On One Side of Tank and Single Outlet On the Other? (see included diagram)

Andrew Mc

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This certainly isn't a mainstream option, but I use a false bottom on my 22L in conjunction with opposing overflows and returns on the ends of the tank. A 30" x 11" sheet of Type 1 PVC sits on 2" columns which creates a "closed loop" type dynamic that allows for lateral flow to run a full circuit.

I've got two Reefbreeder 900gph Nautilus for returns, two Sicce 5000 XStream (opposing each other at the ends of the tank, under the false bottom), two Tunze 6045 (opposing each other at the ends of the tank, above the false bottom) and two Sicce Voyager Nanos opposing and above the false bottom). I've got the returns and the Sicce pumps dialed in on Apex so I can create massive lateral flow in one direction and then reverse that direction periodically. The Tunze's are in anti-synch mode and create turbulent flow as needed.

The tank is relatively new, but it is coming along nicely and the new sticks I dropped in a few weeks ago are showing great extension and putting on some size.

In short, I can dial up 3940 gph of lateral flow from east to west and then reverse the direction with 3940 gph going west to east. Realistically, I am pushing around 2000 gph at any given time in a 22 gallon tank.
 
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naterealbig

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If you care to search there is a huge thread on ReefCentral from 12-15 years ago where we discuss (in great detail) mechanisms (and math) to provide the type of flow that you are looking for.
I joined RC in '06, so I'm certain I've at a minimum perused the thread (along with as many of Randy's articles, and TOTM threads I could pack in)... Some concepts from it are probably rattling around in my skull...just trying to put it all together using insight here (and some formal fluid dynamics training).

It is going to hard with pumps and any reasonable sized plumbing.
Some confirmation here makes me feel a little better. FWIW, before typing up my original post, I figured to achieve something even close to what I described, I'd be using the largest of the 3 Panta Rhei Hydro Tube models, along with the required 6 in piping.... A rough plumbing BOM (including 24" radius elbows) quickly overtook the cost of the pump.

Ignoring standing waves and stresses in the tank, the most efficient method is likely to be large pistons or plungers… similar to a wave pool.
Makes sense

Paul from Oceans motions developed a reversing hydraulic (pilot controlled) valve and pump setup that would work as well. The problem was pumps size and noise… well and cost.
Will do a review of the thread you mentioned... Will check my "followed threads" first...

Thanks
 
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naterealbig

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This certainly isn't a mainstream option, but I use a false bottom on my 22L in conjunction with opposing overflows and returns on the ends of the tank. A 30" x 11" sheet of Type 1 PVC sits on 2" columns which creates a "closed loop" type dynamic that allows for lateral flow to run a full circuit.
What you are describing matches almost exactly, the system in the article I mentioned above from ReefKeeping magazine.

Screenshot 2025-01-13 213218.jpg


I've got two Reefbreeder 900gph Nautilus for returns, two Sicce 5000 XStream (opposing each other at the ends of the tank, under the false bottom), two Tunze 6045 (opposing each other at the ends of the tank, above the false bottom) and two Sicce Voyager Nanos opposing and above the false bottom). I've got the returns and the Sicce pumps dialed in on Apex so I can create massive lateral flow in one direction and then reverse that direction periodically. The Tunze's are in anti-synch mode and create turbulent flow as needed.
Would love to see a pic/vid of this setup.

The tank is relatively new, but it is coming along nicely and the new sticks I dropped in a few weeks ago are showing great extension and putting on some size.

In short, I can dial up 3940 gph of lateral flow from east to west and then reverse the direction with 3940 gph going west to east. Realistically, I am pushing around 2000 gph at any given time in a 22 gallon tank.
I would imagine that if you're able to get the entire water column moving in a gyre-type flow, you've got even more than what you are estimating.
 
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naterealbig

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If I am understanding what you're trying to do correctly, it sounds like you're wanting to move the entire column of water from one side to the other in a laminar flow fashion?
Yes, nailed it.

I'm not sure that's entirely possible in an aquarium scenario – but I think you could get close
Fingers crossed (not that there's any appreciable weight on the outcome, really just looking at feasibility)..

Take a look at the HydroTube by Panta Rhei. It's basically an inline pump designed specifically for closed loops. The cool thing about it is it can actually be reversed, meaning you can run it one way for a period of time and then reverse it run it the other way.
Was the pump considered in my diagrams (before my shotty copy/paste job to cover the brand :) )

On each outlet I would add on of our Random Flow Generator Nozzles. The flow pattern they create will take care of creating service agitation move it down below and get the entire body water moving just in a laminar fashion but in a more randomized movement.
Ah

Then, you can program that pump to run One Direction for a portion of the day and slowly ramp over to the opposite direction towards the end of the cycle the nozzles themselves obviously wouldn't work when water is being pushed through them but when water is being pulled through the front in the reverse direction they would act more as the strainer keep large debris from getting inside.
Makes sense

Not sure if that makes sense or not, but if its something you would be infested din i could draw up a diagram showing how it would work.
This would be helpful to understand the water flow you described above, however, please don't do it if it will require more than the most minimal effort.

In the mean time you can check out the results of a tank flowed by Random Flow Generators on a closed loop in our own office tank, build thread here
Yes, will check this out.

By-the-by - any chance you could point me in the right direction with respect to pump specifications for the 3 different models, along with ancillary equipment such as strainers, bulkheads, etc? I could not find them on the (US) Panta Rhei site..
 

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Quick video of initial set up or not... Trying to post a 12mb vid, but it's not playing once it posts. Here's my YT that has a few clips, including the freshwater stream tank that was my prototype. Obviously, Panta was my inspiration

 
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Some confirmation here makes me feel a little better. FWIW, before typing up my original post, I figured to achieve something even close to what I described, I'd be using the largest of the 3 Panta Rhei Hydro Tube models, along with the required 6 in piping.... A rough plumbing BOM (including 24" radius elbows) quickly overtook the cost of the pump.
Those pumps did not exist then, but one of the proposals was trolling motors or thruster motors in a large diameter loop like that or behind grates on opposing ends.
 

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Was thinking about Gyre flow as discussed/described below (Adams, Jake. "Water Flow is More Important for Corals Than Light, Part V", ReefKeeping Magazine, 15, Jan, 2007) not the Maxspect Gyre Pump.

Screenshot 2025-01-13 203759.jpg


Was trying describe what I visualized as the flow, I imagine I'm botching the terminology. If there is water moving across the tank from left (pump outlet) to right (pump inlet), and another pump pushing water in a circular fashion, say counter clockwise with respect to the tank's cross section (as you described below),



would the waterflow not look like this? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your description.

Screenshot 2025-01-13 204827.jpg


I got that, but in the system you described, I understood there to be a continuous loop in the vertical plane driven by your HOB, while there was current/flow from your canister filter in the horizontal plane.
Using the terminology that you underlined for a gyro, then it’s the same thing as my terminology of vertical loop current except I don’t create alternating pulses. In Oceaneering, gyre travel in the horizontal plane. When I worked deepwater drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, loop or eddie currents would break away from the Gulf Stream and create dynamic positioning problems to stay above the wellhead. Sometimes the current profile would go down 1500’ with a 100 mile radius of the eddie.
 
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naterealbig

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Using the terminology that you underlined for a gyro, then it’s the same thing as my terminology of vertical loop current except I don’t create alternating pulses.
Yes, I've agreed with that since you described your setup in previous post. (Probably not worth noting: if you remove the flow from your canister, the "spiral" ish flow from the HOB 'compresses' into a circle (gyre) as you state.

In Oceaneering, gyre travel in the horizontal plane.
Yes (I use (horizontal) gyre-type flow in my office display), but I didn't realize that the term Gyre was used to describe the phenomenon describing the global, massive ocean currents, generated by wind, until I started to try to find documentation/studies (on aquariums/reefs) on the term (which I had always thought (despite rare usage in the hobby) being used to describe a certain type of aquarium flow/circulation .


When I worked deepwater drilling in the Gulf of Mexico
Scary? Hope I'm 'around' if you ever start chatting about it. Imagine you saw/did some crazy stuff out there. "The Rig" anyone?

loop or eddie currents would break away from the Gulf Stream and create dynamic positioning problems to stay above the wellhead. Sometimes the current profile would go down 1500’ with a 100 mile radius of the eddie.
Different place and different reason, but adding to your thought; While I served on the USS Tennessee (Sub-surface, Ohio Class, Ballistic, '01-'08 timeframe), despite the million or-so hp that our 70MW reactor & main engines generated, we sometimes struggled to stay on course occasionally, even +/- 800 ft while fighting against the Gulf Stream, executing our "strategic deterrant" circles in the Atlantic. I recall 30-40 degree rolls for hours on end (and of course the ensuing, occasional stampede/sprint as the crew took turns racing for the head) :) .
 
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naterealbig

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Quick video of initial set up or not... Trying to post a 12mb vid, but it's not playing once it posts. Here's my YT that has a few clips, including the freshwater stream tank that was my prototype. Obviously, Panta was my inspiration

Loved the vids. Thanks for sharing. How clever! If you didn't remove the wood cover, I would have had no clue what was going on there. Well done.
 

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Yes, I've agreed with that since you described your setup in previous post. (Probably not worth noting: if you remove the flow from your canister, the "spiral" ish flow from the HOB 'compresses' into a circle (gyre) as you state.


Yes (I use (horizontal) gyre-type flow in my office display), but I didn't realize that the term Gyre was used to describe the phenomenon describing the global, massive ocean currents, generated by wind, until I started to try to find documentation/studies (on aquariums/reefs) on the term (which I had always thought (despite rare usage in the hobby) being used to describe a certain type of aquarium flow/circulation .



Scary? Hope I'm 'around' if you ever start chatting about it. Imagine you saw/did some crazy stuff out there. "The Rig" anyone?


Different place and different reason, but adding to your thought; While I served on the USS Tennessee (Ohio Class, Ballistic, '01-'08 timeframe), despite the million or-so hp that our 70MW reactor & main engines generated, we sometimes struggled to stay on course occasionally, even +/- 800 ft while fighting against the Gulf Stream, executing our "strategic deterrant" circles in the Atlantic. I recall 30-40 degree rolls for hours on end (and of course the ensuing, occasional stampede/sprint as the crew took turns racing for the head) :) .
“Racing for the head”

I would never have thought “sailors getting seasick in a submarine”.

Yes, I enjoyed the adventure of working on the deep blue. As senior subsea engineer, I was in charge of well control equipment from the blowout preventer on the bottom of the ocean to the drill string compensator at the crown of the derrick. I have been in the eye of three hurricanes: two on land and one on a small drillship.
 
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naterealbig

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I would never have thought “sailors getting seasick in a submarine”.
You'd of thought wrong :face-with-thermometer: LOL. Pretty sure I saw more sick grown men on the sub that patrol than I saw on a cruise to Alaska that my (now) wife and I took a couple years back, when the captain decided it would be a better idea to plow through the tail of a hurricane that had just rolled through, rather than go around...

Now that we're on the subject, was one of 2 times in my entire life I've gotten seasick. Pretty sure I found dead midship in under 5 minutes without looking at a single map, after the first scramble to the toilet... :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

Yes, I enjoyed the adventure of working on the deep blue. As senior subsea engineer,
Sounds like a super-cool job. Think I may have enjoyed that life, although I imagine it took an incridible amount of grit.. Nostalgia hits a little when I drive past the port and shipyards in South Tampa on my way to pick up my son.

I was in charge of well control equipment from the blowout preventer on the bottom of the ocean to the drill string compensator at the crown of the derrick.
Okay. So, got some more terminology I need to look up. As a subsea engineer, did you ever spend any time under water?

I have been in the eye of three hurricanes: two on land and one on a small drillship.
Dear lord.. Imagine the one on the drillship was rough.

Thanks for sharing.
 

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As a Subsea Engineer in deep water drilling, I did not dive. When on dynamically positioned vessels, Oceaneering used a ROV (Remote Operated Vehicle) with manipulator arms and high resolution camera. One of the Oceaneering technicians was a retired deep water diver, who was on the crew that found the Titanic in the North Atlantic.

When on anchored drilling rigs, I operated the subsea camera and performed underwater inspections. Once, a large Sea Bass took up residence within the framework of the blowout preventer. When the Shell company man saw the large fish, he asked me if we could catch it. So, I got with the welder who made a steel leader with small chain and a whole chicken from Executive Chef (Steward). When we hooked the Bass, it destroyed the camera frame. We never saw that fish again and I gave the Shell company man a $10K charge back requisition to pay for destroyed camera frame.

Yes, the eye of the hurricane on a a 600’ moored drillship was an experience. Due to international salvage laws, we could not abandon the ship and a small skeleton crew manned the vessels while 95% evacuated the ship by helicopter. As a mechanic/machinist mate, I was on the skeleton crew. During the middle of the night, while wedged in my bunk, the front two anchor cables broke which allowed ship to get in the trough and we rolled 41 degrees to port, which was 2 degrees past the point of no return according to naval architecture calculations for ship stability. It was a night to remember.
 

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By-the-by - any chance you could point me in the right direction with respect to pump specifications for the 3 different models, along with ancillary equipment such as strainers, bulkheads, etc? I could not find them on the (US) Panta Rhei site..

I'm pretty sure @uniquecorals is the US reseller, and their site has the various pump models listed with some specs. But I'm not sure if its all the specs you - but take a look here:

Then for the RFG nozzles - take look here - scroll to the second section for the "Jumbo Random Flow Generator® Nozzles". The big ones come in 1.25, 1.5 and 2in sizes
 
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naterealbig

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As a Subsea Engineer in deep water drilling, I did not dive. When on dynamically positioned vessels, Oceaneering used a ROV (Remote Operated Vehicle) with manipulator arms and high resolution camera. One of the Oceaneering technicians was a retired deep water diver, who was on the crew that found the Titanic in the North Atlantic.
Ooof - I don't think I could bring myself crawl into a tiny sub and wiz into the darkness... Still I imagine an immense amount of pressure, as almost any evolution while you're underway has the potential to cost a life. Man, what a really cool job. Now the deepwater diver had some cojones! How cool that must have been to see that massive ship coming out of the darkness.

When on anchored drilling rigs, I operated the subsea camera and performed underwater inspections. Once, a large Sea Bass took up residence within the framework of the blowout preventer. When the Shell company man saw the large fish, he asked me if we could catch it. So, I got with the welder who made a steel leader with small chain and a whole chicken from Executive Chef (Steward). When we hooked the Bass, it destroyed the camera frame. We never saw that fish again and I gave the Shell company man a $10K charge back requisition to pay for destroyed camera frame.
Holy smokes! That is what I call teamwork! And a seabass that could fit a whole chicken in it's mouth - I'd say it would give a Goliath Grouper (or evidently, a Shell company man) a run for it's money. Hope you were able to save the vid, and God bless you - I can't even imagine the guy getting back to the office and having to explain the fishing expedition to the execs.

Yes, the eye of the hurricane on a a 600’ moored drillship was an experience. Due to international salvage laws, we could not abandon the ship and a small skeleton crew manned the vessels while 95% evacuated the ship by helicopter. As a mechanic/machinist mate, I was on the skeleton crew. During the middle of the night, while wedged in my bunk, the front two anchor cables broke which allowed ship to get in the trough and we rolled 41 degrees to port, which was 2 degrees past the point of no return according to naval architecture calculations for ship stability. It was a night to remember.
Seriously got chills reading this. This is seriously the stuff of nightmares - bet you could have written a successful screenplay from that night. Glad you and the rest of the skeleton crew are still here to tell about it - insane that you couldn't abandon the ship. I'm not familiar with int'l salvage laws - was it that someone could have commandeered the ship legally if there was no one onboard?

Thanks for sharing the great stories, and for your feedback in this discussion.
 

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During the middle of the night, while wedged in my bunk, the front two anchor cables broke which allowed ship to get in the trough and we rolled 41 degrees to port, which was 2 degrees past the point of no return according to naval architecture calculations for ship stability. It was a night to remember.
What the sea takes - the sea gives... It rolled you past the point of no return and was kind enough to roll you back... Maybe zero sum, but not a game of chance you are going to win very often I suppose.
 
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I'm pretty sure @uniquecorals is the US reseller, and their site has the various pump models listed with some specs. But I'm not sure if its all the specs you - but take a look here:
Thanks for posting this - I'll take some time and scratch around there.

Then for the RFG nozzles - take look here - scroll to the second section for the "Jumbo Random Flow Generator® Nozzles". The big ones come in 1.25, 1.5 and 2in sizes
Very cool that you've got the 2 in model sub-5 in! I looked at a few different models a while back, and they were massive, 10 - 12 in monsters.

  • The site does not have the flow recommendations up yet for the 1.5" or 2.0" models - any idea here?
  • Assuming appropriately sized piping and a reasonable amount of attention to reduce head pressure within the plumbing, what pump brands and models would you recommend for the 1.5" model? 2" model? Any DC pumps a possibility outside of maybe the larger R.E. Red Dragon or Abyzz pumps?
  • Do you have any literature on the water velocity vs distance from the nozzle, or alternatively the lenth and width of an aquarium housing stony corals if only one RFG was being used (with a correctly-sized pump)?
 

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Hey, Nate “Real Big”

That’s some serious flow dynamics you are going after. I live in a Caribbean lagoon and we don’t do that.

When I was at the Texas Maritime Academy in Galveston, as a Marine Engineering student, we attended the Houston Oil Exposition. Our professor modeled flow dynamics on semisubmersible hull configurations and the coefficients of friction between laminar & turbulent flow are extremely chaotic.


Back in the 1970’s, during early Reefing days, we did not have internet. I choose easy to maintain soft corals because I worked 28 days on & was off for 28 days. If I had gone with SPS that require high flow & due diligence to alkalinity & chemistry, I would have used a Carlson Surge Bucket (old school) to produce a surge. It works quite well.

@BeanAnimal,
You’re right, for massive aquariums a large piston displacement provides a back & forth wave action that is quite hypnotizing. In the early 1990, I visited the Monterey Bay Aquarium and was in awe with the rhythm of it and then was blown away by the jellyfish display in a red light district.
 
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Vivid Creative Aquatics

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The site does not have the flow recommendations up yet for the 1.5" or 2.0" models - any idea here?
We do need to update tat - we haven not simply because its been difficult to really get these tested and find the sweet spots, so to speak.. However in our testing, this is what we gave found to work well.

RFGS200-FLX:
Suggested minimum : 900-1000 GPH
Suggested optimal; 1,800-2,500 GPH

RFGS150-FLX:
Suggested minimum : 900-1000 GPH
Suggested optimal; 1,500-2,000 GPH

These Jumbo RFG nozzles are design to connected directly to PVC pipe, or using the included Multidapter fitting, can be plugged directly into the Bulkhead or pipe socket. What we have not determined yet is the maximum GPH/pressure the Multidapter can withstand. However, we have yet to be abel to blow off an RFG when connected directly to PVC pipe.


Assuming appropriately sized piping and a reasonable amount of attention to reduce head pressure within the plumbing, what pump brands and models would you recommend for the 1.5" model? 2" model? Any DC pumps a possibility outside of maybe the larger R.E. Red Dragon or Abyzz pumps?

Any pump that can meet the suggested optimal flow (SOF) rating will do. Ideally the flow should be steady-on (no pulsing). So either AC or DC pumps will work.



Do you have any literature on the water velocity vs distance from the nozzle, or alternatively the lenth and width of an aquarium housing stony corals if only one RFG was being used (with a correctly-sized pump)?
We don't - at at least not written down just yet. I can say that the randomization of the flow exits the nozzle at approx. a 35% angle from the tip. Distance will be dependent on a few factors, but mostly on overall supply-side GPH. But for either the 1.5 or 2.0in size 6 feet or more would be easily attenable. The "wave-maker-like" action these two RFG create at higher flow levels is pretty insane.

This is an old video, before we moved to the new Flex-Series , but , but it still reelevate for the Jumbo RFGs


Beyond that - you are more than welcome to give us a call. I personally am available most days form 8am to 5pm MST, and i can answer all your questions

623-233-6908 - office
ask me Antonio...
 
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We do need to update tat - we haven not simply because its been difficult to really get these tested and find the sweet spots, so to speak.. However in our testing, this is what we gave found to work well.

RFGS200-FLX:
Suggested minimum : 900-1000 GPH
Suggested optimal; 1,800-2,500 GPH

RFGS150-FLX:
Suggested minimum : 900-1000 GPH
Suggested optimal; 1,500-2,000 GPH

These Jumbo RFG nozzles are design to connected directly to PVC pipe, or using the included Multidapter fitting, can be plugged directly into the Bulkhead or pipe socket. What we have not determined yet is the maximum GPH/pressure the Multidapter can withstand. However, we have yet to be abel to blow off an RFG when connected directly to PVC pipe.




Any pump that can meet the suggested optimal flow (SOF) rating will do. Ideally the flow should be steady-on (no pulsing). So either AC or DC pumps will work.




We don't - at at least not written written just yet. I can say that the randomization of the flow exits the nozzle at approx. a 35% angle from the tip. Distance will be dependent on a few factors, but mostly on overall supply-side GPH. But for either the 1.5 or 2.0in size 6 feet or more would be easily attenable. The "wave-maker-like" action these two RFG create at higher flow levels is pretty insane.

This is an old video, before we moved to the new Flex-Series , but , but it still reelevate for the Jumbo RFGs


Beyond that - you are more than welcome to give us a call. I personally am available most days form 8am to 5pm MST, and i can answer all your questions

623-233-6908 - office
ask me Antonio...

I have the 1.5" RFG's being pushed with Vectra L2's (1 pump for each RFG). I run them around 85-90% and the randomization of the flow is crazy (they don't blow off the PVC either lol) I'm guessing I am surpassing the 2000 gph you mention as well since the L2 with no head is 3100gph. While I doubt it is hitting 100% efficiency it is still pushing alot of water and I have turned it up to 100% and had no issues other than the water movement on the surface of the tank is insane and when the two RFG's converge it will splash over the cross braces. It is random but it sounds like someone dumped a bucket of water in the tank. This is why I only run them at 90% max.
 

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