Anyone Running a Remote Deep Sand Bed/Macro 'Fuge For Nitrate Reduction?

[KrisReef]

@AydenLincoln - nice puffer!

The mangroves I used to be indifferent to, but more recently I've seen some really nice trees, well trimmed, almost like a large Bonsai tree, and that really appeals to me!

Maybe this is "more than I need" for nitrate reduction as everything is so much more efficient than it was all those years ago. I am planning a large sump packed with live rock (as I've seen other reefers here do), with a dark "cryptic zone".

I originally wanted a typical Chaeto 'fuge, which I've had before, but I've recently had an algae turf scrubber recommended to me. I'm a little on the fence as it's $500, which seems like a lot of money for a 'purple' grow light, some foam, and some plastic where the algae grows, but I guess if it works...

Having a lighted 'fuge separate from my sump appeals to me. If I can add a deep sand bed, macros and mangroves, I think that would be cool. I'll be able to control the flow into and through it, and if it ever goes south I can take if off line entirely.

Does that seem like a plan?

I think it has merit.

I will try and get a picture next time I visit the store with the Mangrove. It did have a bonsai vibe. I don’t remember seeing one like that before. I have seen Mangroves and it didn’t look like a swamp as much as a bonsai project. Quite interesting really.

 

[Gtinnel]

I have half of a 29g tank that I use as a refugium and I have considered filling it half full of sand, but I never actually did it.
There was thread where someone tried it with some buckets of sand connected to his system. His test wasn’t very scientific but still interesting to read as he kept his results up to date for a few months.

remote deep sand bed for no3/po4

I have been in this hobby for 40 years, and I have never had the problems I have now. I started my current take about 3 years ago. This is the first tank that I had money to spend on it, so I figured it would be easier. Here is what I have: 300 gallon tank Apex controller Trident Bashsea...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Fish Fan]

I have half of a 29g tank that I use as a refugium and I have considered filling it half full of sand, but I never actually did it.
There was thread where someone tried it with some buckets of sand connected to his system. His test wasn’t very scientific but still interesting to read as he kept his results up to date for a few months.

remote deep sand bed for no3/po4

I have been in this hobby for 40 years, and I have never had the problems I have now. I started my current take about 3 years ago. This is the first tank that I had money to spend on it, so I figured it would be easier. Here is what I have: 300 gallon tank Apex controller Trident Bashsea...

www.reef2reef.com

Thank you for the link, I'll check that out!

I think it has merit.

I will try and get a picture next time I visit the store with the Mangrove. It did have a bonsai vibe. I don’t remember seeing one like that before. I have seen Mangroves and it didn’t look like a swamp as much as a bonsai project. Quite interesting really.

Please post if you can, I'd love to see that mangrove tree!

 

[Fish Fan]

I ran a remote 30g on my 120 BB and then the 80. 3+" of sand. No3 never went above 2.
Currently running a Deltec nitrate reactor on my ext 170.

Very nice looking setup! Thanks for posting!

 

[Subsea]

@AydenLincoln - nice puffer!

The mangroves I used to be indifferent to, but more recently I've seen some really nice trees, well trimmed, almost like a large Bonsai tree, and that really appeals to me!

Maybe this is "more than I need" for nitrate reduction as everything is so much more efficient than it was all those years ago. I am planning a large sump packed with live rock (as I've seen other reefers here do), with a dark "cryptic zone".

I originally wanted a typical Chaeto 'fuge, which I've had before, but I've recently had an algae turf scrubber recommended to me. I'm a little on the fence as it's $500, which seems like a lot of money for a 'purple' grow light, some foam, and some plastic where the algae grows, but I guess if it works...

Having a lighted 'fuge separate from my sump appeals to me. If I can add a deep sand bed, macros and mangroves, I think that would be cool. I'll be able to control the flow into and through it, and if it ever goes south I can take if off line entirely.

Does that seem like a plan?

If I understood; you plan on 150G mixed garden display with a refugium focused on nitrate reduction.

I say everything that grows needs nitrogen. I just purchased & spread a ton of bio-char enhanced with nitrogen fixation bacteria that convert free nitrogen molecules into amino acids & proteins. This happens in marine substrates. However, what Julian Sprung mentioned was that Denitrification & Nitrification happened in close proximity of each other and are bacteria driven. However, nitrate reduction is also bacteria driven, it functions in a reducing oxygen environment which requires bacteria to consume much energy to break apart oxygen molecule of NO4 and release a free molecule of nitrogen gas N2. Because N2 is a gas; when it exceeds the partial pressure constant in water, it will go back to the atmosphere as a “nutrient export” mechanism.

Cryptic refugiums perform much more complex chemistry with DOC (dissolved organic carbon) with cryptic sponges that consume POC & DOC and slough off energy rich detritus that feeds the microbial loop.

 

[Fish Fan]

If I understood; you plan on 150G mixed garden display with a refugium focused on nitrate reduction.

I say everything that grows needs nitrogen. I just purchased & spread a ton of bio-char enhanced with nitrogen fixation bacteria that convert free nitrogen molecules into amino acids & proteins. This happens in marine substrates. However, what Julian Sprung mentioned was that Denitrification & Nitrification happened in close proximity of each other and are bacteria driven. However, while denitrification is also bacteria driven, it functions in a reducing oxygen environment which requires bacteria to consume much energy to break apart oxygen molecule of NO4 and release a free molecule of nitrogen gas N2.

Cryptic refugiums perform much more complex chemistry with DOC (dissolved organic carbon) with cryptic sponges that consume POC & DOC and slough off energy rich detritus that feeds the microbial loop.

Thank you for the reply! Is your take that my sand bed idea would be inefficient compared to a cryptic zone, which I also plan to have?

I do understand nitrogen fixers, and I do understand that the denitrification happen in low oxygen environment, that's why I'm considering a deep sand bed.

 

[Subsea]

Thank you for the reply! Is your take that my sand bed idea would be inefficient compared to a cryptic zone, which I also plan to have?

I do understand nitrogen fixers, and I do understand that the denitrification happen in low oxygen environment, that's why I'm considering a deep sand bed.

Not all nitrogen fixation bacteria require anarobic bacteria. Many Faculative bacteria perform both Nitrification & denitrification in close proximity of each other, which negets the need for dsb.

Facultative anaerobic organism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

“A facultative anaerobic organismis an organism that makes ATP by aerobic respiration if oxygen is present, but is capable of switching to fermentation if oxygen is absent.[1][2]”

 

[Fish Fan]

Not all nitrogen fixation bacteria require anarobic bacteria. Many Faculative bacteria perform both Nitrification & denitrification in close proximity of each other, which negets the need for dsb.

Sure, but facultative anaerobes will use aerobic respiration whenever they can, so I think the only way to hope to have denitrification is to have a hypoxic sand bed. Right?

 

[KrisReef]

i was just reading another thread about skimmers and the 8th post points out what many have found, that nitrate can be difficult to keep enough of in modern live rock tank set ups.

Maintaining reef tank with skimmer only

Are some of you able to control nutrient levels by only using aggressive protein skimming? Can you comment on tank loading, feeding rates and skimmer size and settings? Thank you for any replies!

www.reef2reef.com

@Troylee

 

[Subsea]

Sure, but facultative anaerobes will use aerobic respiration whenever they can, so I think the only way to hope to have denitrification is to have a hypoxic sand bed. Right?

I doubt that you or I could measure the processes involved. @Lasse has oxygen probes in his plenum sandbed if you want to discuss those ideas. As a municipal waste water superintendent, we starved bacteria of oxygen which forced then to uptake PO4 & NO4, then we drained off dead bacteria sludge to drying beds. Once the activated sludge went thru a process to Significantly Reduce Pathogens, we spread it on hay fields to be consumed by cattle.

Again, I see little need for nitrate reduction in a mature reef. It’s your tank, GO FOR IT.

 

[Troylee]

i was just reading another thread about skimmers and the 8th post points out what many have found, that nitrate can be difficult to keep enough of in modern live rock tank set ups.

Maintaining reef tank with skimmer only

Are some of you able to control nutrient levels by only using aggressive protein skimming? Can you comment on tank loading, feeding rates and skimmer size and settings? Thank you for any replies!

www.reef2reef.com

@Troylee

Yeah I see no need for one or a algae scrubber etc.. I truly believe everyone is getting Dino’s from using fleece rollers and skimmers etc! It’s way too much in my opinion and a skimmer is all that’s needed.

 

[Fish Fan]

I doubt that you or I could measure the processes involved. @Lasse has oxygen probes in his plenum sandbed if you want to discuss those ideas. As a municipal waste water superintendent, we starved bacteria of oxygen which forced then to uptake PO4 & NO4, then we drained off dead bacteria sludge to drying beds. Once the activated sludge went thru a process to Significantly Reduce Pathogens, we spread it on hay fields to be consumed by cattle.

Again, I see little need for nitrate reduction in a mature reef. It’s your tank, GO FOR IT.

I’m not arguing at all, I don’t see a lot of people running deep sand beds, and that certainly tells me something. I was just exploring the idea.

But would you also say the same about a chaeto fuge or algae turf scrubber, or even a skimmer for that matter (which is something I am going to try and go without in this tank)?

Yeah I see no need for one or a algae scrubber etc.. I truly believe everyone is getting Dino’s from using fleece rollers and skimmers etc! It’s way too much in my opinion and a skimmer is all that’s needed.

Interesting! I have a big ‘ole Reef Octoous skimmer, brand new, that I can use on this tank if needed, but a skimmer was the one thing I was hoping to go without. That’s why I was exploring other ideas.

 

[Troylee]

I’m not arguing at all, I don’t see a lot of people running deep sand beds, and that certainly tells me something. I was just exploring the idea.

But would you also say the same about a chaeto fuge or algae turf scrubber, or even a skimmer for that matter (which is something I am going to try and go without in this tank)?


Interesting! I have a big ‘ole Reef Octoous skimmer, brand new, that I can use on this tank if needed, but a skimmer was the one thing I was hoping to go without. That’s why I was exploring other ideas.

It’s one of the basic fundamentals that got us to today! I’m old skool I’ve had tanks for over 20 years myself off and on! I keep it very simple and my current display runs just like my first tank back then! High light! “Halides” high flow! And a skimmer with live rock.

 

[Subsea]

“But would you also say the same about a chaeto fuge or algae turf scrubber, or even a skimmer for that matter (which is something I am going to try and go without in this tank)?“

In > 50 years of Reefing, I have tried it all. In general, a macro algae refugium requires MUCH volume to be effective at nitrate reduction. In my experiences, using a sump as macro algae refugium & a cryptic refugium will compromise each. I believe in keeping it simple: KISS works for me.

PS: All of my systems are skimmerless, some are sumpless. Most have reverse flow undergravel filter thru aroggonite substrate.

 

[Fish Fan]

PS: All of my systems are skimmerless, some are sumpless. Most have reverse flow undergravel filter thru aroggonite substrate.

Old school, nice! Reminds me of my fist tanks. I actually learned only very recently that you can still buy an undergravel filter lol!

My plan was to pack my sump with live rock, as I've seen a couple other members here do, and I like their approach and results. I do plan on having a cryptic section in the sump, but if I do a macro refugium with or without a DSB it will be a separate tank for sure.

 

[drbrivers]

“But would you also say the same about a chaeto fuge or algae turf scrubber, or even a skimmer for that matter (which is something I am going to try and go without in this tank)?“

In > 50 years of Reefing, I have tried it all. In general, a macro algae refugium requires MUCH volume to be effective at nitrate reduction. In my experiences, using a sump as macro algae refugium & a cryptic refugium will compromise each. I believe in keeping it simple: KISS works for me.

PS: All of my systems are skimmerless, some are sumpless. Most have reverse flow undergravel filter thru aroggonite substrate.

Very interested in the idea of a reverse flow under gravel filter - can you please let me know how you set yours up? Many thanks.