Are all types of zoa toxic and if so should I be precautions?

[Herides]

Hey guys,

I'm interested in getting zoas for my first coral and I heard and read in some places and zoanthids have a toxin in them that I should be aware of. But when I try to dig deeper into it with older forum posts, there's lots of contradiction and old info and no single forum post seems to be quite sure what is true or not. So I'm asking right now for the current facts and advice on these questions from ya'll:

• Are all zoas or only specific zoas toxic?
  • If no, which ones are toxic so as I can avoid them?
• How potent is this toxin?
• How likely am I to be exposed to this toxin, speaking as an individual who is newish to the hobby and tends to have cuts and scratches on my fingers quite frequently?
• What safety measures do I need to keep safe it is serious?
• Does this toxin spread to the whole tank (i.e. I'm I going to have to wear latex gloves every time I put my hands in)?
• Does this toxin harm any other inhabitants in my tank?
• What do I do if I'm stupid and am affected by this toxin?

edit: whoops just noticed a typo in the title, apologies.

 

[Oscar47f]

They’re not all toxic, however it is best practice to assume they are all toxic because discerning the difference species is super difficult, so assume everything zoanthid wise is toxic and just handle with care! Paly toxin is highly toxic so don’t handle them with open wounds or rub your eyes in between handling them! Use eye protection and gloves when necessary and you should be good to go!

 

[Fish_Sticks]

Paly toxin is no joke. After fragging just two polyps of Utter Chaos, I went to bed with a pretty nice headache and neck ache - spreading all the way down to my shoulders and upper back. Sucked, but could have been worse.

Wear gloves, eye gear, frag under water, and dont cut the polyps...

I find it best to propagate zoas and palys by keeping a nicely populated frag plug around and placing it on any fresh rocks you want to seed / sell.

 

[Herides]

They’re not all toxic, however it is best practice to assume they are all toxic because discerning the difference species is super difficult, so assume everything zoanthid wise is toxic and just handle with care! Paly toxin is highly toxic so don’t handle them with open wounds or rub your eyes in between handling them! Use eye protection and gloves when necessary and you should be good to go!

By don't handle them with open wounds do you mean potentially touching them or even sticking my hand in the water once introducing them?

 

[Herides]

Paly toxin is no joke. After fragging just two polyps of Utter Chaos, I went to bed with a pretty nice headache and neck ache - spreading all the way down to my shoulders and upper back. Sucked, but could have been worse.

Wear gloves, eye gear, frag under water, and dont cut the polyps...

I find it best to propagate zoas and palys by keeping a nicely populated frag plug around and placing it on any fresh rocks you want to seed / sell.

Oof, that does sound bad.

So even if I just pick up some zoas from my LFS I need to don basic lab safety gear to handle them and add them to my tank? Also I don't entirely understand yet what fragging is or why I would be cutting them (still kinda new to the hobby and this would be my very first coral)

Lastly how does one use a frag plug? When I ordered my aquascape rocks It came with some and I haven't had a chance to look up what they are.

 

[ectoaesthetics]

I have yet to know a reefer with ANY issues from them just being in the tank. I even irritate the living daylights out of all of mine by brushing them with a toothbrush to remove stinging hydroids between the polyps. They are also currently being stung by hydroids and probably responding chemically as well. My tank only has 5 gallons of water volume so I would have a very high concentration of zoa/paly toxin.

That being said I would never handle them outside of the tank without gloves and eyewear!! It is for real and no joke. Open wounds or not you should wear gloves. Transdermal transmission is a thing for most liquids... glove up and wear real eyewear (not just glasses or reading glasses).

 

[Herides]

I have yet to know a reefer with ANY issues from them just being in the tank. I even irritate the living daylights out of all of mine by brushing them with a toothbrush to remove stinging hydroids between the polyps. They are also currently being stung by hydroids and probably responding chemically as well. My tank only has 5 gallons of water volume so I would have a very high concentration of zoa/paly toxin.

That being said I would never handle them outside of the tank without gloves and eyewear!! It is for real and no joke. Open wounds or not you should wear gloves. Transdermal transmission is a thing for most liquids... glove up and wear real eyewear (not just glasses or reading glasses).

So you're saying the water they are in should be fine (fine enough to not warrant gloves?) but if I go near them or attempt to touch them in or out of water I need to wear gloves? That sounds reasonable I think.

 

[boacvh]

Oof, that does sound bad.

So even if I just pick up some zoas from my LFS I need to don basic lab safety gear to handle them and add them to my tank? Also I don't entirely understand yet what fragging is or why I would be cutting them (still kinda new to the hobby and this would be my very first coral)

Lastly how does one use a frag plug? When I ordered my aquascape rocks It came with some and I haven't had a chance to look up what they are.

As a precaution, basic gear yes. You don't know and wont be able to tell which ones are toxic and which ones are not, so as mentioned above, be safe and assume they all are.
Fragging means just removing a small segment from the main colony of your coral. i.e. its just cutting a small piece. In the case of zoas it means cutting off one or few polyps from your main colony.
Wear glasses, a mask and gloves is what I would recommend when you start handling them, just to be safe. The idea is if for whatever reason it splashes or squirts while you are handling them it doesn't get on your eyes, mouth or skin, that's it. Putting them in your tank should be no issue, but eventually you will be cutting them or "pruning" because they will grow in your tank. Mine actually grow like a weed, pretty fast, so at some point you'll need to cut them.
I don't think its very likely at all you get exposed, but the toxin is no joke, so just take the necessary precautions.

 

[Fish_Sticks]

Anytime you cut or scrape them.

 

[boacvh]

So you're saying the water they are in should be fine (fine enough to not warrant gloves?) but if I go near them or attempt to touch them in or out of water I need to wear gloves? That sounds reasonable I think.

I would wear gloves at all times when handling them.

 

[danschoenherr]

I have read the horror stories from Palyotoxin and know of people first hand that have had problems. Personally, having fragged probably a thousand plus zoas, I have never had any problems and I do not use any gloves or goggles. I do not keep palys, which I believe are the main ones that have the Palyotoxin. With that said though, I would still recommend taking precautions when fragging, especially eyewear, because not everyone will have the same reactions. Another thing is if you have any open cuts, scrapes , etc.......you are not only succebtible to Palyotoxin, but all other bacteria that are present in your tank. Many people develop infections this way. I know of a few instances of people requiring expensive hospital visits after cutting their hand in the tank and prolonged fragging sessions with mushrooms and slimed up SPS.
You don't have to treat it like it is radioactive plutonium, but give it some respect and keep yourself out of the ER.

 

[Tired]

Just wanted to pop in and say, never put your hands in your tank with open wounds. There are bacteria that live in reef aquariums that are far nastier than palytoxin. A bit of palytoxin in a cut will make you pretty sick, a bit of the wrong bacteria in a cut could send you to the hospital.

If you have cuts on your hands, wear gloves in your tank, or use long tongs. Really, don't put your cut hands on anything from nature. Don't touch zoas with your bare hands, and do not touch your rock or anything even remotely sharp with your bare hands. Just keep your bare hands out of your tank, really.

I have a long set of rust-proofed tongs that I use if I need to move things in my tank. When I get zoas from the LFS, I just use the tongs to put them in the tank. That's good to do with most corals, really. The only things I don't move purely with the tongs are rock flower anemones, which are too squishy and hard to grip without hurting them.

A frag plug is basically a nicely shaped rock that someone made. When you frag a coral, you attach it to the frag plug, and have a nice little frag on a nicely shaped base that can be moved or sold.

 

[C. Eymann]

Its a big myth that all Zoanthus sp and all Palythoa sp. contain palytoxin/its analogues (PLTX) homopalytoxin, deoxypalytoxin, bishomopalytoxin, neopalytoxin, 42-hydroxypalytoxin.
Only actually a few species of palythoa contain palytoxins in medically significant concentrations, P. heliodiscus and P. toxica are noted to have high concentrations whereas aome samples taken of Palythoa mutuki have been shown to have undetectable concentrations of PLTX
Many samples of different species of Zoanthus sp- taken also have shown to have undetectable concentrations of PLTX as well.

However, thats not to say these, or any group of corals are devoid of potentially irritating, possibly medically significant chemicals that maybe harmful if ingested, which is why precautions should be taken with all coral when it comes to handling.

Then there is the rampant misidentification when it comes to palythoa in the "zoa trade" so many Zoanthus sp are incorrectly called palys/palythoa.
Utter chaos, bowsers, ding dangs, people eaters, bloodsuckers, butkissers, nirvanas, pandoras etc etc are commonly called palys/palythoa by enthusiasts and vendors, which would be incorrect on all cases.
Z. gigantus, sonderi, vietnamensis, pulchellus, kuroshio are commonly misidentified as palythoa, which is a fad that I wish would fade, I have seen people avoid some of these very pretty, easy and rewarding corals to keep simply because they are under the impression they are highly toxic palythoa, that is rather unfortunate IMO.

Just my 2 pieces of copper.

 

[Jeffcb]

Paly toxin is no joke. After fragging just two polyps of Utter Chaos, I went to bed with a pretty nice headache and neck ache - spreading all the way down to my shoulders and upper back. Sucked, but could have been worse.

Wear gloves, eye gear, frag under water, and dont cut the polyps...

I find it best to propagate zoas and palys by keeping a nicely populated frag plug around and placing it on any fresh rocks you want to seed / sell.

I have had a problem lately with a couple of open wounds getting infected after working in the tank. Probably a bacterial infection from detritus etc. not Palytoxin but never the less it sucks and looks serious. Got antibiotics that seem to be working.

My question is what type of gloves work and are also safe for the aquarium?

 

[AquaBiomics]

I cut zoa and paly frags constantly, to the tune of a couple hundred a month. Sometimes I wear gloves, sometimes I don't. Most of the time I remember to wash my hands afterwards, I think. My hands more or less always have some kind of scratch or cut on them. I've never experienced any palytoxin problems.

IMO you can ignore most of what you read about this, and stay safe by never aerosolizing the stuff. In other words, *never* scrub rocks with a scrub brush or tooth brush, out of the water. *Never* heat up rocks (on a stove or in an oven).

I'm not arguing its not real. I'm just saying, #1 there is such a thing as an allergic reaction, and #2 every credible case of palytoxin poisoning I've heard about involved one of the mistakes outlined above.

 

[Tired]

It's definitely true that not all zoas/palys/etc in the hobby have palytoxin. However, it's a good idea to treat them like they all do, unless you know for sure that something is a species which doesn't.

And you should really keep your bare hands off them. Not least because you're going to have a big problem if you get palytoxin on your hands and then absentmindedly rub your eye.

I suspect some people are more sensitive to palytoxin than others. Not in terms of an allergic reaction, just that many toxins affect people differently. Which would explain why some people report feeling sick after skin contact with palytoxin, and some people are fine with handling a bunch of the stuff.

It's a good idea to have gloves for your aquarium, for when you need to move rocks or if you have a cut on your hand. Just get some of those elbow-length or shoulder-length rubber gloves people use when working with chemicals, the yellow ones that kinda look like dishwashing gloves. Perfectly safe for your aquarium.

Also, DO NOT mess around with infections from saltwater. I live near the Gulf, and around here, the oystershells can have flesh-eating bacteria on them. If you cut yourself on an oystershell in the water (and they're very sharp, it's not difficult), you're supposed to immediately drench the cut in a wound-safe sterilizing agent. There are some really, really nasty bacteria that can potentially be on your rock, and there's no way to know. DO NOT put open wounds into your fish tank! Fish tanks are closed boxes that have much higher bacterial concentrations than the ocean. And you shouldn't have open wounds in the ocean anyway.
Just don't put open wounds on nature.

 

[Buck23]

I have yet to know a reefer with ANY issues from them just being in the tank. I even irritate the living daylights out of all of mine by brushing them with a toothbrush to remove stinging hydroids between the polyps. They are also currently being stung by hydroids and probably responding chemically as well. My tank only has 5 gallons of water volume so I would have a very high concentration of zoa/paly toxin.

That being said I would never handle them outside of the tank without gloves and eyewear!! It is for real and no joke. Open wounds or not you should wear gloves. Transdermal transmission is a thing for most liquids... glove up and wear real eyewear (not just glasses or reading glasses).

And never ever boil rocks. The toxins can be air born. Julian Sprung has a you tube on this subject.