Are Captive Bred Fish More Susceptible to Diseases?

MnFish1

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I am fairly certain ich is not a virus or a bacteria so I don't understand the comparison to human disease. That is a reach.
The comparison to human disease came because someone (earlier - and I don't remember who) - said fish and people cannot develop immunity to parasites. That is not true - in fish or humans. There was an article that I posted showing that indeed certain people can be immune to parasites (and Fish can as well) - Though as Jay said - that immunity can be shorter in fish - and in both - 'worm-type' parasites generate less immunity that is specific to that parasite.
 

MnFish1

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I just want him to stress the fish once temp is brought back down to a normal level ich will appear due to the fishes weakened immune state i don’t want the fish to die just use the stressing event to induce the response that we all know it will have.
Do you know what the temperature variation on the reef is on a 24 hour basis? Here is an article from Nature that gives some information - but there are many others not so focused on coral: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-65194-8
 

Whiskeyboy84

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That is silly and pointless convo to have. The point is to keep ich out of the enclosed system not cure the oceans of it.
I understand that however the ability to keep ich out of an enclosed system depends 100% on our ability to eliminate it at all points of the aquarium building process which just isn’t 100% guarantee able at the present time that’s been my entire point.
You are saying something I was not. I said some studies have suggested - that in an aquarium situation - assuming no further additions, that a given strain of CI can/may die out within 11-12 generations. I did not say that it always would, nor that it would in a given tank - I said this is what research suggests. There is also research to suggest that over time - assuming no significant active infections that Ich can have far less infectivity.

You are mis-stating what I said about '100% sterile environments. I was talking about - say a person who starts a tank with dry (sterile) rock, water ,etc - and tank raised fish - the assumption would be - especially if those fish were treated with copper, etc beforehand - that there will be no ich in that tank (i.e. its eradicated) - something you said was 'impossible'.

If you take a fish with Ich (subclinical) - treat it with copper for 30 days according to protocol - the vast likelihood is that Ich on that fish will be eradicated - such that when you add it to a tank with no Ich - There will be none.

As to the parent fish - I don't get your point. The parents would always be removed from a breeding tank - or they would eat the fry.

Lastly - I suggested that you perhaps contact @AquaBiomics and get his data on the presence of CI in aquaria (hardly a sterile lab sample) - and ask how many tanks have CI present. If it's not (assuming his parasite DNA tests work) - Ich is eradicated (or below detectable/infections levels). Right>
so you are assuming a lot here one your assuming that the initial treatment will be 100% effective on any new stock brought in to a “sterile” environment to keep ich from contaminating said environment hence why i emphasized it would have to be a completely sterile lab type environment outside of such tightly controlled parameters and environments this wouldn’t be feasible, removing the parent fish from the equation breaks the link from ocean to production and there fore would be the easiest way to create specimens that don’t have any ICH dna associated with them. As the sperm and gametes are gathered sterile and wouldn’t take the chance of being in ich contaminated waters, however you still have the
Minute possibility of ich transfer from the surgical tools used to extract the DNA materials. The dilution of ich through time and generation which you put forward is feasible and honestly I think the most promising for sustainability just you would have to have plenty of diversity in your initial brood selections to not run into genetic issues with generational in breeding. Which I pointed out is one of the benefits of the designer clowns and tangs that have been coming to market in recent years. My entire point is that with best practices we can limit these but can not give 100% guarantees as ich can survive for days outside of water so even if you think a dry net is good to go it may not be and with anything like salts or supplements that are brought to market through ocean going routes you have minimal chance but still chance of contamination through salt spray. Can a home aquarium be sterile I am sure it can be I just don’t thank 99% of us have the dedication or know how to make it happen. Also like was pointed out before quarantine processes and medication treatments are ever evolving as we learn more so what we believe works today we may find really doesn’t work tomorrow. That’s why I say the absence of symptoms is not the proof of absence.
 

Wildreefs

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You're missing the point. the point was that a let's pretend 200 gallon tank with 1 baby tang compared to a tank with 6 large tangs. One of those tanks will have Ich multiply at an extremely high exponential rate if it were to become infected.

Ich can be eradicated 1) there are studies that show that after 11 - 12 generations - assuming no active infections - it can naturally die off. Also quarantining fish (properly) - and putting them in a sterile tank - can eradicate it. Lastly - if you don't believe me - ask Aquabiomics to share their data on the number of tanks with Ich DNA present.
Don’t think I missed your point at all. I’m just stating compared to that if the ocean, all tanks are higher in terms of bioload.
And I am aware how ich can be eliminated, never said it couldn’t
 

MnFish1

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I just want him to stress the fish once temp is brought back down to a normal level ich will appear due to the fishes weakened immune state i don’t want the fish to die just use the stressing event to induce the response that we all know it will have.
Well - unfortunately - I think you're wrong. In fact - at higher temps Ich can die off much more quickly. I haven't done the experiment - and you might be right. But the science says you're not unfortunately
 

MnFish1

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Don’t think I missed your point at all. I’m just stating compared to that if the ocean, all tanks are higher in terms of bioload.
And I am aware how ich can be eliminated, never said it couldn’t
No you missed it. I was saying that TANKS with a low bio load - have much less risk of an exponential Ich infection than those with a high bio load
 

Cthulukelele

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Well - unfortunately - I think you're wrong. In fact - at higher temps Ich can die off much more quickly. I haven't done the experiment - and you might be right. But the science says you're not unfortunately
What do you run your tanks at? I swing between 78.4 and 80.4
 

MnFish1

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It’s a very nice tank your Moorish Idol is beautiful be careful the tang police are going to get you. Like I said before we just need to agree to disagree. What you consider cured and what others consider cured are two different things with my understanding of your thinking that I have gathered from this debate is you feel as though you haven’t had any outbreaks or symptoms that it’s clearly not viable in your system however I and many others are of the opinion that just because your fish look healthy and they don’t have any signs or symptoms doesn’t mean it’s not there. The ultimate way to put this at rest would to be a DNA analysis taken from multiple areas in the tank and sump but that’s ridiculously expensive so like I have said and will continue to say nothing is 100% except death and taxes.
The company that does this has recommended the areas to sample (I would assume) - where the likelihood of parasites is highest.
 

Wildreefs

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It's interesting to watch how these threads about more contentious issues like captive breeding, diseases, quarantine, etc evolve. The camps on a lot of these topics are pretty entrenched lol
It’s more about said vendor stated this, and because they do this for a living, that makes them a professional, so there what they say must be correct .

or worse because I don’t see something, it’s cured and doesn’t exist in my tank.

Do i think inch can be eradicated from a tank or never introduced? Yes

Do I think hobbyist have the measures and devices to do so? Very few , a $50 copper checker may be Better than nothing, but is it truly representative of the actual number? Not sure

When one checks copper level at 6 pm, after work, does that number change at 4 am and ph dropped? Some have suggested it had in the past , binds to some objects at various acidity levels. So unless your checking around the clock, who really knows.

I’ll also say this, having quarantined hundreds of fish for myself and others, and speaking to the various people who do so for a living, the most important , unpredictable tool we have in the box is the user, the human behind it all. Plenty of chances to make mistakes, obstacles (phone calls, crying kids, water overflowing in another vessel) all take our eyes of the ball so to speak.

We rely on household chemicals such as bleach and peroxide, are they really 5 percent as marked in the bottle by the time you use them? Have no choice but to take their word .

I think what sucks the most about forums are the devotions some have to the vendors. They can do no wrong, and when it happens and it’s addressed, people come to their defense blindly. I literally will not allow anyone to at my stuff anymore, only because when you ask a lot of questions like I do, unsettling answers come out. Like finding out they run 2.4 copper on most fish, except say a leopard because there delicate, and go half the amount. Unless you ask, you hope they are doing the right thing, not just trying to wheel more fish thru, however hope has never been a good strategy
 

MnFish1

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I understand that however the ability to keep ich out of an enclosed system depends 100% on our ability to eliminate it at all points of the aquarium building process which just isn’t 100% guarantee able at the present time that’s been my entire point.

so you are assuming a lot here one your assuming that the initial treatment will be 100% effective on any new stock brought in to a “sterile” environment to keep ich from contaminating said environment hence why i emphasized it would have to be a completely sterile lab type environment outside of such tightly controlled parameters and environments this wouldn’t be feasible, removing the parent fish from the equation breaks the link from ocean to production and there fore would be the easiest way to create specimens that don’t have any ICH dna associated with them. As the sperm and gametes are gathered sterile and wouldn’t take the chance of being in ich contaminated waters, however you still have the
Minute possibility of ich transfer from the surgical tools used to extract the DNA materials. The dilution of ich through time and generation which you put forward is feasible and honestly I think the most promising for sustainability just you would have to have plenty of diversity in your initial brood selections to not run into genetic issues with generational in breeding. Which I pointed out is one of the benefits of the designer clowns and tangs that have been coming to market in recent years. My entire point is that with best practices we can limit these but can not give 100% guarantees as ich can survive for days outside of water so even if you think a dry net is good to go it may not be and with anything like salts or supplements that are brought to market through ocean going routes you have minimal chance but still chance of contamination through salt spray. Can a home aquarium be sterile I am sure it can be I just don’t thank 99% of us have the dedication or know how to make it happen. Also like was pointed out before quarantine processes and medication treatments are ever evolving as we learn more so what we believe works today we may find really doesn’t work tomorrow. That’s why I say the absence of symptoms is not the proof of absence.
I apologize I cannot read this whole thing - because based on your initial sentences you are not getting what I'm saying. As the other person (I apologize - I don't remember the user) - said - you said its impossible to eradicate ICH. I said it was possible - thats it. I did not imply that there was a 100% chance of eradication or a 5 percent chance or any other chance.

However - I would like to hear/see your evidence that ICH can survive for days on a dry net.
 

Wildreefs

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No you missed it. I was saying that TANKS with a low bio load - have much less risk of an exponential Ich infection than those with a high bio load
That is true, I agree but for different reasons. If ich can multiply at the rates historybhave stated, well millions becomes millions more, I can’t see how measurable different 1 fish vs 2 fish makes (100 percent increase or double)

I agree that is the case but more because of stress , fighting etc . How many times have we heard some 400 gallon tank going fallow for 76 days, it fails, and then they realize a blenny was in the overflow and kept the cycle going.
 

Wildreefs

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I apologize I cannot read this whole thing - because based on your initial sentences you are not getting what I'm saying. As the other person (I apologize - I don't remember the user) - said - you said its impossible to eradicate ICH. I said it was possible - thats it. I did not imply that there was a 100% chance of eradication or a 5 percent chance or any other chance.

However - I would like to hear/see your evidence that ICH can survive for days on a dry net.
Define dry net? Is it taken apart with absolutely no water in it? Are there salt crystals in the intertwined handle that hold moisture? It has been said before salt crystals can carry moistures and prevent it from drying out completely. Which is why a dried out tank can still feel damp weeks after it has been drained
 

MnFish1

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That is true, I agree but for different reasons. If ich can multiply at the rates historybhave stated, well millions becomes millions more, I can’t see how measurable different 1 fish vs 2 fish makes (100 percent increase or double)

I agree that is the case but more because of stress , fighting etc . How many times have we heard some 400 gallon tank going fallow for 76 days, it fails, and then they realize a blenny was in the overflow and kept the cycle going.
Because I was not talking about the number of fish - but rather the SURFACE AREA of the fish in the tank. So - in other words - a tank with one clownfish - as compared to a tank with 6 tangs - is going to have different multiplication rates. Why? Because - if the same number of parasite burden were present on the one clown as the 6 tangs - the clown would die, and the parasites would die. (note this is just an example)
 

MnFish1

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Define dry net? Is it taken apart with absolutely no water in it? Are there salt crystals in the intertwined handle that hold moisture? It has been said before salt crystals can carry moistures and prevent it from drying out completely. Which is why a dried out tank can still feel damp weeks after it has been drained
I think we're splitting hairs. I was asking if you have evidence that CI survives on 'dry nets'. thats it - I do not want to get into molecular chemistry of salt crystals. However - since salt itself is one of the oldest disinfectants known to man - I would say a 'dry net' - first - is extremely unlikely to have any CI on it to start. 2. if there was some - its likely to be dead/
 

Tamberav

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All I am seeing is hypothetical situations where ich eradication can fail. Are you saying that velvet is always present too? Velvet is also treated with copper.
 

MnFish1

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All I am seeing is hypothetical situations where ich eradication can fail. Are you saying that velvet is always present too? Velvet is also treated with copper.
I think this is the exact issue - Of course parasites can be eradicated - by a number of methods - whether velvet, Ich, etc. The issue probably comes down to the fact that most of the research applies to CI - as compared to other parasites. Agree with you completely!!!
 

Wildreefs

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I think we're splitting hairs. I was asking if you have evidence that CI survives on 'dry nets'. thats it - I do not want to get into molecular chemistry of salt crystals. However - since salt itself is one of the oldest disinfectants known to man - I would say a 'dry net' - first - is extremely unlikely to have any CI on it to start. 2. if there was some - its likely to be dead/
Think your are correct about splitting hairs. A true dry net, will not have any CI survived on it. I’m just stating to define, because some people will take a towel, towel it dry, let it sit for an hour or two and call it dry. Or read 24 hours of dry time does it, and have a pump sit for 24 hours and call it dry, where that pump can have droplets for weeks inside .
 

Wildreefs

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I think we're splitting hairs. I was asking if you have evidence that CI survives on 'dry nets'. thats it - I do not want to get into molecular chemistry of salt crystals. However - since salt itself is one of the oldest disinfectants known to man - I would say a 'dry net' - first - is extremely unlikely to have any CI on it to start. 2. if there was some - its likely to be dead/
Also you weren’t directing that net scenario at me, another member
 

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