Are GFCI's Necessary. A Thought for not having them for your tank

Are GFI's Necessary?

  • Yes

    Votes: 350 64.6%
  • No

    Votes: 85 15.7%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 96 17.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 11 2.0%

  • Total voters
    542

Brew12

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Brew12 and I are on the same page. It is a difference between trade termonology for our differences. To an electrician when you hook the power to the supply side of one duplex outlet and then run from the load side of that outlet to the next outlet and so on this is referred to as wired in series in the electrical trade since the current has to flow through a buss bar in the duplex outlet. Doing this the outlets are still in parallel to the power source, but if an outlet goes bad or is removed the down stream outlets will cease to work. As this applies to GFCI outlets the load side of the outlet is protected by the internal breaker in the outlet. So you cannot use the load terminals of a GFCI outlet to feed the supply of another GFCI outlet. If the first one trips it would remove power from both Outlets. It is possible for both to trip also under the right circumstances. Brew12 correct me if I got this wrong or the terminology is wrong since I am not a electrician. I am a electronics technician by trade. There is a bit of difference. For one I am not familiar with all the electrical codes that electricians use or all their termonology. Currently I repair and maintain ion implanters used in the semiconductor industry.
That pretty well sums it up.

If people stick to the diagrams that come with the devices when they do the wiring, they should be fine.
 

OrionN

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I have 4 circuits dedicated to my fish room. I wire them all parallels and each outlet on separate GFCI.
I have 16 outlets all individually GFCI. If something trip it just trip that outlet and does not affect the circuit.
I make sure each PH is on different circuit. Light spread out to all 4 circuits. Two heater on separate circuit.
Try to keep it so that even if a whole circuit is out my tank stil have enough life support
 

WannaBSpaghetti

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I'm stuck as to what I want to do for my setup, swap the outlet that I use for a GFIC or have an electrician come by & put in a separate outlet only for the tank. My outlets are only 6" above the floor level so even though I'm not really worried about a leak if something happened to the tank(Break or blowout) that's a different situation.

I just had a licensed electrician come in and do exactly that (install a separate 20K circuit and GFCI dedicated to the tank). Idk what standard rates are but my guy came in, quoted me $400, and was done in 2 hours, parts run included. It cost me less than what replacing some of my equipment would cost and makes the wife (and I) feel safe from fire and electrocution. Worth every penny.
 

n2585722

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FYI, I am sure that the labor charge also includes all the normal cost of running a buisness such as advertising, phone, rent, taxes, license fees and etc along with any actual labor related cost of the business. When I had my electronics business I did not sell enough parts to even pay the phone bill with. All the other cost were made up in the labor charge.
 

KrisReef

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I was alive before they GFI was required by our local building code, and have installed them as retrofit equipment in a lot of places. For along time I thought that they were overkill, and just a stupid overreach of government to require one more expense for very little safety.
That changed in an apartment in Eureka, CA., inside of a bathroom in a building that is over 100 years old. I put a new GFI on the bathroom light and power receptacle in an apartment I was painting after a move out/remodel. I was working long hours and got tired. I accidentally broke the incandescent bulb overhead with a paint roller as I was finishing up the job late one evening. I got another bulb and climbed up the ladder to unscrew the broken bulb, and remember thinking' "I flipped the wall switch off after the bulb broke, right," and I reached up to remove the remains of the bulb from the socket. As I contacted the bulb, I also remember thinking (suddenly very clearly): "O crap, I didn't turn the wallswitch off" at the same time that I grabbed a hold of the bare metal base with exposed broken element. I felt a tiny, faint spark in my hand and I heard the GFI trip on the wall at the same time.

If you ever run into too much stray current in your tank, it will cost your family a lot more than a GFI plug to bury you. If your GFI trips at home while you are away, it will be cheaper to replace your tank than the house if it should burn down from an electrical fire.

BTW, I have two dedicated GFI protected circuits to my aquarium, and I have had a heater leaking enough voltage into the sump to jolt me so hard that I thought my fillings might be in danger of falling, no flying out of my mouth (along with some shockingly choice words) and the GFI's did not even trip(?)! A grounding probe is also a pretty good thing to add, it also turns out. I can't explain why, but I am pretty certain that this is all true.
 

Brew12

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I need to point out that I incorrectly replied to @Foothill Corals
I just had a dedicated circuit installed with two separate GFCI outlets wired so one will not trip the other. I plan on running my return pump on one and the circulation pumps on the other. If either trips the tank will still easily run for at least a day without problems.

His original post contained a picture which I thought was incorrect. Line side connections at the bottom of GFCI's are now an accepted practice. I should have done more research before replying.

Edit: I owe you an apology. My knowledge appears to be dated. This entire getting old thing is rough. It seems to be common now for the line to be on top or bottom depending on the manufacturer. As long as the supply to the outlet is connected to the line side this will work fine.


Original reply below.
Have you actually checked to see if this works? Just so you are aware, it shouldn't.

The proper way to do this is to connect the line side wires to the first receptacles and then feed the next receptacle from the line side connections instead of the load side connections. Basically, everything should connect at the top.

To get down stream receptacles to trip, you connect the down stream ones to the bottom of the first GFCI in line.
 

n2585722

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Brew12, I am there with you. I now have a 16 year old grandkid. Teenage grandkids can sure be entertaining though.
 

Brew12

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Brew12, I am there with you. I now have a 16 year old grandkid. Teenage grandkids can sure be entertaining though.
I just don't like that I called him out when he was correct. He deserved better.
 

Dennis McGrath

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Not having a GFCI and putting your hands in the tank... When I hear this, I think back to the Wood Beast segment of the movie Flash Gordon, putting his arm in the stump.
 

Foothill Corals

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I need to point out that I incorrectly replied to @Foothill Corals


His original post contained a picture which I thought was incorrect. Line side connections at the bottom of GFCI's are now an accepted practice. I should have done more research before replying.


No problem, I just learned something. That's always a good thing!
 
OP
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Dragon52

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Not having a GFCI and putting your hands in the tank... When I hear this, I think back to the Wood Beast segment of the movie Flash Gordon, putting his arm in the stump.

I've been putting my hands/arms in my tank from the time it was first setup 3 yrs ago & even back before the home reef tank became a common thing.
 

Mark SF

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Thank you for the very informative read, every tank I have set up so far I've installed a GFCI and no doubt because of a reminder like this thread. For me, living in an apartment, I have more than my own safety to be concerned with and I think that the risk of fire is the greatest concern.

My question: Is there a premium GFCI on the market that would be less prone to false trips?
 

Reeferdood

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I just don't like that I called him out when he was correct. He deserved better.

This is what makes people look to you for advice. When anyone admits they are wrong and owns up to it is admirable in my eyes.
We are all human and will make mistakes.
Cheers bud.
 

OrionN

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...

BTW, I have two dedicated GFI protected circuits to my aquarium, and I have had a heater leaking enough voltage into the sump to jolt me so hard that I thought my fillings might be in danger of falling, no flying out of my mouth (along with some shockingly choice words) and the GFI's did not even trip(?)! A grounding probe is also a pretty good thing to add, it also turns out. I can't explain why, but I am pretty certain that this is all true.
That is a defective GFCI. Push the test button to see if it trip. You need to replace it.
 

KrisReef

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OrionN

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Actually, that doesn't have to be true. Here is an article that explains this better. (Ground your tank & sump!)
https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2010/05/16/gfcis-and-electrocution/
I think you are not correct here. I did not read the article, but really do not need to read it.

Basically, if there is current leakage, but your tank is not ground, then it does not trip the GFCI. However, as soon as the tank is grounded, by your body in this case, it should shut off the circuit if the GFCI works.
So if you get shock (current flow through you to the ground), and it did not shut off the current then the GFCI is defective and does not work. Basically the GFCI detects unequal current between the live and neutral wire, if the current flow is not equal, meaning some of the current leak and go to the ground, then it shut off the current.
 

KrisReef

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I think you are not correct here. I did not read the article, but really do not need to read it.

Basically, if there is current leakage, but your tank is not ground, then it does not trip the GFCI. However, as soon as the tank is grounded, by your body in this case, it should shut off the circuit if the GFCI works.
So if you get shock (current flow through you to the ground), and it did not shut off the current then the GFCI is defective and does not work. Basically the GFCI detects unequal current between the live and neutral wire, if the current flow is not equal, meaning some of the current leak and go to the ground, then it shut off the current.
I know you did not read the article, or my post and understand how a GFI or GFCI functions. The article sums it up:
Remember, contrary to popular belief, you can be electrocuted on a GFCI-protected receptacle. GFCIs only detect imbalances in the current between the hot and the neutral. They cannot tell if the power is lighting up the light bulb or you.

Let's not argue,that is not my point. Ground your tank and be safe! :)
 

Brew12

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Actually, that doesn't have to be true. Here is an article that explains this better. (Ground your tank & sump!)
https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2010/05/16/gfcis-and-electrocution/
I completely agree with grounding the tank but this article is rather unfortunate and doesn't apply to a reef tank. The only way the scenario in the article works is with very clean, high resistance water. The individual would then need to put both hands in the tank with one touching the hot lead and the other touching the neutral. Could it happen? Sure. Any time you insert yourself as the best conductive path between a hot and neutral you can be electrocuted without tripping a GFCI.

That said, there are many excellent reasons to use a ground probe. The most important to me personally is to cause the GFCI to trip as soon as a fault occurs. I want to minimize the time energize copper is in contact with my aquarium water.
 

OrionN

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I know you did not read the article, or my post and understand how a GFI or GFCI functions. The article sums it up:
Remember, contrary to popular belief, you can be electrocuted on a GFCI-protected receptacle. GFCIs only detect imbalances in the current between the hot and the neutral. They cannot tell if the power is lighting up the light bulb or you.

Let's not argue,that is not my point. Ground your tank and be safe! :)
The only way you can get shock and not trip a good GFCI is if you are not grounded and have to touch both terminal at the same time. This just does not happen very easy, especially when you are working on your reef tank. Ground your tank does not help safe your life, it just help shut down defective pumps so that the metal, mostly copper does not get into your tank too much by shut down defective pumps right away. (with GFCI that is)
 
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Moo76

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Always Always us a GFCI.
more people killed with 120 vac than all others combined.
and yes use a grounding probe.
Safety first always.

vacation - plug main pump into none GFCI temp. is a good idea if you want a little piece of mind.
 
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