Are low Phosphates killing my coral?

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DirtMcGurt

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I'd always had trouble keeping PO4 up...it was always around .02 -.03. Previously had 3 tangs, a pair of clowns and about 6 other fish in a 130g. After I moved last Nov I got rid of the tangs because all of the smaller fish (except the clowns) always stayed hid. I now have a total of 16 small / medium sized fish that all stay out all the time. I'm feeding 2 cubes of frozen a day along with a mix of small pellets twice a day and I'm finally seeing PO4 consistently around .1. No GFO and no macro algae other than a little GHA in the display tank (that I'm trying to get rid of!) Over the last 6 months any time I put an LPS frag in the tank it was gone within a week. I've been trying to hold off adding any more for the last 2 months until I'm sure the PO4 is going to stay at a good level.

I noticed my smaller fish stay out since I lost that powder brown tang. It wasn't huge, maybe 3" at best, but it was super active and I guess that spooked some of the other fish. Are there any other grazers or algae eaters that are smaller than a tang? A lawnmower blenny I guess, but any other ideas?
 

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I noticed my smaller fish stay out since I lost that powder brown tang. It wasn't huge, maybe 3" at best, but it was super active and I guess that spooked some of the other fish. Are there any other grazers or algae eaters that are smaller than a tang? A lawnmower blenny I guess, but any other ideas?
Same experience here...I had a powder blue, yellow and yellow eye kole. I've got a purple fire fish that I almost never saw. He stays out swimming all around the tank now. I've got a lawnmower blenny and used to have a tuxedo urchin. Once I see more algae growing on the rocks I'll probably get another urchin.
 
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DirtMcGurt

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Same experience here...I had a powder blue, yellow and yellow eye kole. I've got a purple fire fish that I almost never saw. He stays out swimming all around the tank now. I've got a lawnmower blenny and used to have a tuxedo urchin. Once I see more algae growing on the rocks I'll probably get another urchin.

I've never had an urchin but have heard most of them do well with algae. Do they get the algae on the rocks as well?
 

Fotocha

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For those interested here's some of the research papers showing the problems caused by high nitrates and/or low phosphates, as well as showing the probelms with dosing nitrates and/or phosphates. Best source of both is from fish poop. WHile the majority of research is done on wild corals in aquaria the work done by SOuthampton Univeristy in England was done with corals maintianed for a minimum of 2 years in a closed and closely monitored reef system:

Southampton University:
Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

D'angelo, C., & Wiedenmann, J. (2012). An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals. Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the United Kingdom, 92(4), 769-775. doi:10.1017/S0025315411001883

******************************************

Nitrate enhancment inhibits carbon fixation (calcification) Ammonium is better than nitrate

Nitrate or nitrate and phosphate additions decreased calcification while phosphate alone additions increased calcification

Nutrient availability, specifically the forms and ratios of nutrients such as nitrogen and phosphorus, mediates algal symbiont parasitism

Nitrate and Iron enhancments inhibit growth

Additionally, research shows the benefits of feeding corals is species specific and more likley than not has either no effect or a negative effect on coral growth

And , keep in mind corals have simbiotic diazatrophs that assimilate dinitrogen (N2, free nitrogen) for the coral

Likewise
 
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DirtMcGurt

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That's cool. I may get one but I'll have to do some research on them 1st. I still need/want a tang, or other fish to help with my phosphates. I'll dose Neophos until I get one, and keep testing P04 everyday. N03 is finally below 5 ppm and corals seem happier so far.

If you folks don't test you new saltwater... I'd make it a habit. I got a batch of Fritz salt, which I always use and always tested within range, but this batch tested at 7dKh. That's 2.5 lower than I normally keep it. I made 2 separate batches and added the salt super slow to make sure it wasn't precipitating. Both batches were 7 dkh and calcium 340 ppm. TEST YOUR NEW SALTWATER! Lol. I was suprised.
 
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DirtMcGurt

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Hopefully I can come to a conclusion about this situation for the next reefer that has the same problem, and doesn't find another thread without any resolve.

So I've been dosing Neophos since my last post to keep P04 at 0.04 - 0.06 and have seen some good responses in the my sick coral. One Duncan frag is actually growing back tissue that it had lost. So that's gotta be a good sign. Yesterday I bought a tang to replace the one I lost a few months ago. I didn't dose Neophos today, 1st skipped dosing in weeks, and my P04 hasn't moved. Thats only one day with that tang pooping in my tank. I'll test P04 daily until im sure it stays up now.

I really think losing my last tang is the whole reason for this. When it died it got behind some rock in a hard to reach place and the cleaners had it all torn apart. N03 rose fast and the largest fish in my reef wasnt contributing to the P04 level. If I'm right... and fish poop, not just food, contributes to neccessary P04 then that has to be it. Unless I'm missing something. Let me know if this doesn't make sense and why.
 
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DirtMcGurt

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Day 2 of having the new tang and P04 is steady at 0.04. I'm really excited and happy with my tank right now. My BTA is open for the 2nd day in a row and it's been angry/closed for a cpl weeks. All corals seem happier but only time will tell. Plus, this new tang gets along really well with all other fish. I think I've achieved balance and will continue to test daily and hope it holds. It looks promising tho!
 

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That's cool. I may get one but I'll have to do some research on them 1st. I still need/want a tang, or other fish to help with my phosphates. I'll dose Neophos until I get one, and keep testing P04 everyday. N03 is finally below 5 ppm and corals seem happier so far.

If you folks don't test you new saltwater... I'd make it a habit. I got a batch of Fritz salt, which I always use and always tested within range, but this batch tested at 7dKh. That's 2.5 lower than I normally keep it. I made 2 separate batches and added the salt super slow to make sure it wasn't precipitating. Both batches were 7 dkh and calcium 340 ppm. TEST YOUR NEW SALTWATER! Lol. I was suprised.

Jumping in late to this thread but this is the 4th thread in the last 36 hrs discussing low dkh with 35 ppt Fritz water. All I am saying. Fritz does good sponsorship work to support the hobby where I am, but this is... something they should look into.
 

ScottB

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Day 2 of having the new tang and P04 is steady at 0.04. I'm really excited and happy with my tank right now. My BTA is open for the 2nd day in a row and it's been angry/closed for a cpl weeks. All corals seem happier but only time will tell. Plus, this new tang gets along really well with all other fish. I think I've achieved balance and will continue to test daily and hope it holds. It looks promising tho!

A couple months ago, my frag system went through dinos (ostreopsis) and maybe I saw you there.

We are not going back there again are we?!!!

My dosing is gradually coming off now thanks to bioload in my frag system. Still doing PO4 dosing but each week is less as my rock (well, technically it is Marine Pure block) loads up on PO4 and my tang fish turds fly in the flow. Good lord it looks like a toilet bowl! Sorry for that imagery, but if you've ever had dinos... fish turds equal an awesome sunrise.

Video when lights come up again.
 
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DirtMcGurt

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Thanks for the heads up on the Fritz salt! Their salt use to be super consistent and I even got lazy on testing my new saltwater because of it. That bite me in the butt but lesson learned. I think I'll email/call them about it. Since there are many more cases.
 
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DirtMcGurt

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Yea Scott! I spent a lot of time in that Dinos thread. Those aren't coming again, I hope. I have a monster UV light that I've ran since beating them. I've seen my old tang take huge dumps so I know what you mean. It made me remember that poop is a natural P04 supplement. My new tang definitely seems to be helping things. I never thought I'd be dosing P04 in my tank but I had to.
 

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