Are quarantine tanks worth the effort?

BRS

threebuoys

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Being an electrician my knowledge on this is limited to things I read here and on research papers but it sounds logical. I do want to add that remember, it is not just that the parasite lives on the fish, falls off and "looks" for another fish to infect.

Of course that is one way fish are infected. But probably all fish in the sea are harboring parasites either on their gills, skin or in their stomach. When they get eaten by another fish (which is what happens to almost every fish) that predator fish also has that parasite in it's gut so it will be infected that way to. :)

According to these authors, fish can have immunity to parasites.

Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited.
(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review Article

An Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.

And this one

Fish immunity and parasite infections: from innate immunity to immunoprophylactic prospects​

Pilar Alvarez-Pellitero 1
Affiliations expand

Abstract​

The increasing economic importance of fish parasitoses for aquaculture and fisheries has enhanced the interest in the defence mechanisms against these infections. Both innate and adaptive immune responses are mounted by fish to control parasite infections, and several mechanisms described for mammalian parasitoses have also been demonstrated in teleosts. Innate immune initiation relies on the recognition of pathogen-associated molecular patterns (PAMPs) by pathogen recognizing receptors (PRRs).
I am not saying fish can't develop immunities. I'm saying ocean fish don't need immunity to deal with the parasites we are most concerned about and in fact are probably not immune to those parasites. Otherwise, why does ich ever show up in aquariums in the first place? Some significant studies have focused on ich on fisheries. The ones I've read were in regard to fish being raised in confined quarters, hence more susceptible to high propagule pressure. I'm certainly not a scientist either, but I think it's highly unlikely, given the parasite life cycle, that a fish becomes infected with ich by eating another fish infected with ich.

For me, I don't want to rely on a fish I acquire to already have immunity or to develop immunity while in my possession. And I say hogwash that no one who has QTd and not followed your protocol has been as successful as you. Your are to be commended for your success. I'm sure just as many people have failed trying to emulate your experience as have failed trying QT. In both cases, people make mistakes. When they are lucky, the fish they acquire were healthy to begin with, and they are convinced their method was the reason for their success. When they are unlucky,.......
 
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Paul B

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I don't know either but those authors I linked seem to say that fish acquire immunity to ectoparasites.

I also feel and have read numerous times and I can link it here if I find it again that fry get their immunity from their Mothers which helps them until they start feeding and get their own gut bacteria and thus their own immunity.

Some of it is in here about immunity

Review

Parassitologia

. 2007 Sep;49(3):185-91.

Protective immunity in fish against protozoan diseases​

P T K Woo 1
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  • PMID: 18410078
(this is just an excerpt)

Recovered fish are protected from the three diseases (acquired immunity). Live I. multifiliis theronts injected intraperitoneally into fish elicit protection. Also, a recombinant immoblizing-antigen vaccine against ichthyophthirosis has been developed but further evaluations are necessary. The live Cryptobia vaccine protects salmonids from infections while the DNA-vaccine stimulates production of antibodies to neutralize the disease causing factor (metalloprotease) in cryptobiosis; hence infected fish recover more rapidly.
 

ReefCheef

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A much higher percentage of sick fish will get healthy in an established tank than they will a quarantine. Not even close.

QT is only even maybe worth it if you have a dedicated system that is always running for it. Placing fish that are so stressed from being shipped multiple times in a short window into a sterile box is.. inhumane. You're much better off buying from vendors that QT for you - it's really not even more expensive so no clue why everyone doesn't do this.

By placing your fish in the most established ecosystem, It gives them the best shot at a healthy life. A strong ecosystem = strong fish. Keeping it in a sterile box for 4 weeks dosing it with chemicals and having to pay close attention to it 24/7 is a fools errand IMO. If you don't pay absolute attention to it a million different things can go wrong, and fast, depending on the medication you're dosing.

Most of the "disease" that gets talked about on here is due to poorly run tanks, not the health of the animals received. Granted some things do have clear visible signs of disease - do not put those in your tank.

Unfortunately, this is a hobby that suffers a lot from loss of life. That's a difficult thing to come to terms with for most - including myself. No one wants to be responsible for a pet's death. I think that's a big reason everyone's quick to jump to "disease" for everything. It means it wasn't our fault. I find that to be a rather juvenile way of dealing with a complex issue, and I don't believe it is in the best interest of the animals we've been entrusted to care for.

Buy prequaruntined fish.
Drip acclimate.
Throw them in safety stop before your tank.
Transfer to at least 2 different buckets to prevent store water from entering your tank.
Run UV.

I was on the QT bandwagon hardcore for the better part of the last 10+ years. I've since jumped ship and never once looked back.
 
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Squidward

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Yet ich still exists :thinking-face:
You obviously don't understand the ich life cycle in a tank compared to the ocean where fish aren't trapped in a glass cube and have ich mulitply without no escape. 12 tangs and no ich ..woo what a great feeling.
 

Subsea

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I have ich in my 25 yr mature tank. Twenty yrs ago, after a power outage, ich showed itself in several fish. Ich symptoms disappeared after 1 week. This is the same system that I released 10 juvenile Hippo Tangs with obvious ich showing in individual shipping bags. All symptoms cleared up in 10 days and individuals were moved to different system. That was 10 years ago and this is one of the ich infected Hippos. I don’t doubt that dormant ich larvae exist in this 25 year mature tank. Do the fish in this tank have acquired immunity to ich? More likely the fish in this tank have healthy immune systems using their body slime as first line of defense against parasites.
 

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HBtank

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You obviously don't understand the ich life cycle in a tank compared to the ocean where fish aren't trapped in a glass cube and have ich mulitply without no escape. 12 tangs and no ich ..woo what a great feeling.
And tanks that have it “managed“, aka haven’t gotten a certificate of approval from TTM purists, are indistinguishable from those who have. Their tangs are just fine. I think you lost the plot.
 
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Squidward

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And tanks that have it “managed“, aka haven’t gotten a certificate of approval from TTM purists, are indistinguishable from those who have. Their tangs are just fine. I think you lost the plot.
Oh you can manage all you want. I'm just telling the truth how much better it is to never have to worry about it flaring up during stress or whatever. Ich eradication > ich management
 

Subsea

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Oh you can manage all you want. I'm just telling the truth how much better it is to never have to worry about it flaring up during stress or whatever. Ich eradication > ich management
I don’t worry about it either AND I can guarante, I didn’t work as hard as you did to accomplish your “worry free state of mind”..
 
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HBtank

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Oh you can manage all you want. I'm just telling the truth how much better it is to never have to worry about it flaring up during stress or whatever. Ich eradication > ich management
Never had that happen with established fish. Never had a fish die from ich, tbh, it doesn’t really concern me.
 
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Paul B

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My fish like to manage ich in my tank like they did in the sea where ich never bothered them.
Not two years or ten years, but fifty years. I hear at 52 years ich can cause problems. :anguished-face:

Have a great day guys. Cold here now. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:
 

Subsea

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Paul,
Its cold here in Austin. I got my “long Johns” on with a large fire on 50” tv and a 22 SEER efficiency ductless heat pump on.

This Hippo was put in this tank 10 yrs ago as a juvenile with ich showing in shipping bag.

I like this tank for its stability and ease of maintenance. Most of the fish in here are 10 yrs or older, but I don’t keep up as my focus is on inverts. My favorite are flame scallop & sea apple. It’s difficult for me to get healthy sea apples so I rescued one at a LFS 2 yrs ago. For 18 months, I was not sure apple was going to make it. In the last 3 months, I find he enjoys mussel juice and mysis shrimp. Because where he choose to be, pictures are difficult. Caribbean flame scallops choose to hide behind rock attached to uptake tube for canister filter.

When I first started mud refugiums, my 4 yr old grandson & I would lay on bellies looing into refugiums with lighted magnifying glasses. It’s magic what the little people do in the MULM.

image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
 
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reef_1

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My fish like to manage ich in my tank like they did in the sea where ich never bothered them.
Not two years or ten years, but fifty years. I hear at 52 years ich can cause problems. :anguished-face:

I dont want to link that - not so old - article again when you say copper is the easiest solution for ich and your fish was simming in copper.

I dont understand why dont you just simply say that you tried a lot of different methods, but recently you are using this natural method, plus a bit of an ozone and as you seem to have success with it, you beleive in this - instead of making it look like you never touched any medication for 50 years only the worms collected from the beach.

But even then you run ozone, one of the working parasite management tool, so is it the fish immune system copes with ich or the ozone? Dont you think this ozone contributes a little bit to your fish health by killing some of the swimmers?
 
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LucasRe

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I personally QT anything wet going into my display system. That means TTM and observation for the fish and 45 days @ 27 degrees in a fishless system for everything else.

I have the space for a dedicated coral qt and don’t find TTM to be overly burdensome so my systems and procedures work for me.

For those with less time and space, buying healthy specimens from trusted suppliers is probably enough to maintain a successful tank. I see in depth QT as an extension of the hobby, not a 100% necessity.
 

Jay Hemdal

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My fish like to manage ich in my tank like they did in the sea where ich never bothered them.
Not two years or ten years, but fifty years. I hear at 52 years ich can cause problems. :anguished-face:

Have a great day guys. Cold here now. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

Actually Cryptocaryon has caused epizootics in the ocean under specific circumstances - in the Florida Keys, during cold snaps, fish are observed huddling under reef ledges covered in ich. The original thought was that the cold water affected their immunity, and indeed, that might be part of it, but the primary cause was more fish packed in under the ledges, with the tomonts releasing theronts every morning. The theronts did not have to swim through huge amounts of open water to find hosts, the hosts were right there, all packed together. Now, the propagule pressure is skewed in favor of the parasite and the fish got severely infected.

Jay
 
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areefer01

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Evening all. I am sure I will get shot down here, but,… Are quarantine tanks worth the effort. In 20 years I have not bought a sick fish from my LFS. Just lucky? Yet others have sick fish in quarantine. Just makes me wonder. Any opinions on this?

So OP / @peterhos - have you got your answer yet after 8 pages and 157 posts?
 
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Lowell Lemon

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I think it is worth it. When I think of how much time, effort and money I have wrapped in my tank since setting it up I would certainly be ticked off I had to tear it down because my fish all got wiped out. Particularly my Tomini Tang that took 3 attempts to get a viable fish.

QT is a pain in the butt and a lot of work. I think that's why a lot of people aren't successful. I've only QT'ed two fish so far but both have survived. IMO if you can be prepared to dedicate 15 minutes twice a day on it for about 50 days you're golden, it gets old very fast, but you have to be dedicated and persistent. If that sounds like WOW! that's excessive...pay someone to do it for you.
So you have 33% success rate in this one fish alone. That is ax66% loss rate. Just think about that for a minute. My store owners only experienced a 3% loss rate on average. Just saying there might be a better way.
 

Enderg60

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Up until my current build I have never QTed anything. Just got good specimens from trusted sources.

I have had outbreaks of ich, velvet, brook, red bugs, AEFW, aptasia, bryopsis, vermatids and a few more Im sure I forgot. Most were not a big issue to take care of. Others like vermatids and aptasia you just learn to live with. Overall not too bad.

NOW I want nothing to do with that crap in my new tank. Im QTing more to keep pests out than disease prevention. Time will tell if it was worth it.

If I find a vermatid in my new tank im throwing the whole QT setup in the trash.
 
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