Are the heat packs we use for shipping actually pointless? Is there a better solution?

[LiveFreeAndReef]

Taped to the top of the inside I can see. I was addressing the tape it to the top on the outside with a hole in the top of the insulation.

I think @Dolphins18 meant that the pack was taped to the inside of the box, but with a hole in the top of the box so the pack has direct access to fresh air. I was responding to @Lyss though

 

[Lyss]

I believe they're taped to the top because if they get wet they no longer work

Yeah, I've had them come sealed up in plastic and in w/the other bags.

 

[LiveFreeAndReef]

Yeah, I've had them come sealed up in plastic and in w/the other bags.

There's the real experiment! Not whether they work or not, but what is the best placement for them!

 

[Dolphins18]

I think @Dolphins18 meant that the pack was taped to the inside of the box, but with a hole in the top of the box so the pack has direct access to fresh air. I was responding to @Lyss though

Yea, inside the box. The only ones I tape outside the insulated box are the ones sold as hand warmers, as they get much hotter than the animal heat packs.

 

[Shirak]

I have opened plenty of tape sealed boxes with no 'breathing hole', fully lined all around the inside with solid pieces of styrofoam, and immediately after opening, the heat packs are still warm to the touch.

 

[stephj03]

I was researching coral shipping and temperatures and so on and came across this older thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/heat-pack-study.96954/

It seems to be the only one I've seen with data on temperatures over several hours in the cold simulating shipping. I would love to see any and all data on this that you are aware of. Maybe I will conduct my own tests as well, but I don't have a temperature logger.

The conclusion I've drawn from the (admittedly limited) data and also the posts by others, is that typical heat packs are at best useless and at worst harmful during shipping for corals. In summary, the heat packs can't get enough oxygen after the initial supply is exhausted, so they don't actually have any effect after the first hour or so. The difference in temperature at the end of the tests results from a spike at the beginning for the tests with heat packs (which is more likely to kill your corals than slowly declining temps during overnight shipping) and multiple heat packs don't make any difference at all compared to single ones. If you were going to use a heat pack, it seems you are better off just running your frag tank hotter. After the initial spike, the temperature curve is indistinguishable between heat pack and no heat pack. Another poster claims to have run similar tests even with ventilation holes to keep the heat packs running, and found that this made little to no difference. This post doesn't come with data, but the assertions are backed by equations too.

I haven't seen any other studies or data on the topic, and although it seems intuitive that we need some way to keep our corals warm in transit, I am not sure this is the case. I have received plenty of cold (like 40s and 50s) coral packages and never lost any. Often customers find an apparently "still warm" heat pack and assume this means the coral was packed well. In reality, the heat pack likely started to heat up when they opened the package. There are plenty of anecdotes, and heat packs are an industry standard. But like many other things in hobby-based industries, industry standard methods can result from somebody smart saying something intuitive and then everyone doing that because it makes sense. The idea that heat packs keep the package warm is a comforting thought because it gives us a sense of control.

Now, we know corals will do better under warmer temperatures (although again I believe they are more resilient to short term cold than most assume), and it seems our conventional heating solutions are pretty ineffective. Are there alternatives? What about tiny electronic heating units? There are also gel-based handwarmers that are reusable. Is there any good way to store heat? I know water volume is good for this, but perhaps there are even better materials.

It's possible we don't really need heatpacks at all, and that focusing on well-sealed insulation is far more important than any sort of heat generation. What are your thoughts? Have you done any testing?

We must be looking at different experiments and different data when looking at the thread you linked to.

But I get it, a lot of the posters on that thread have similar assumptions to yours.

I'm a former lab rat that ended up shipping things -80 globally in my first industry gig out of grad school.

So let me be the first to tell you that the styro in the cold room exp does not correlate well with the temp pull up or pull down through overnight shipping with a carrier.

If it did, World Courier wouldn't have a biz.

 

[stephj03]

To be honest, I think the data in that thread supports what most are posting here about the value of heat packs in certain seasons/weather.

With a series of heat packs that nobody would use today, packed in a manner that few ppl ship today, that OP still saw a 10 degree pull up over the realistic time window of normal shipping.

And against the odds of constant, depressed temp vs about 80% of transit.

I look at that and see a useful tool within certain parameter ranges.

 

[stephj03]

You'd prob be the best to gather more data. I don't mean that as a dig, it's just that there prob aren't that many ppl as curious about this rabbit hole as you seem to be.

If you decide to, I would strongly reccomend what we ended up doing at the gig I mentioned when the styro in the cold room data didn't correlate.


We took 12 boxes and shipped in triplicate to 4 different destination temp ranges that represented the normal flow of our cartridges through the supply chain.

Data loggers are cheap now so that's no longer a constraint.

You just need to pack the boxes like someone really would today. Unibody with a hole on the lid and a 48hr shipping style heat pack, or a non unibody, naturally vented box.

And you'd prob want to limit to 2-3 frags given the internal volume used in to he styro from that thread @ 100ml Max/frag bag.

 

[MaxTremors]

Like I said. It seems intuitive. And rudimentary tests show they seem to work! I want to see more data on this. But that thread is so far all I have to go off of. Many things happen for decades that aren't backed by science. Heatpacks are cheap and they make both the seller and buyer feel more comfortable even if the coral doesn't notice a difference... it is really not farfetched to think people do things that make sense without questioning them too hard. Think of how many controversial and completely different methods people have for keeping pets, all of which seem to work most of the time.

This is my question for you: how many corals or boxes of coral have you shipped or had shipped to you during the winter months?

i will say that for many years I was hesitant and didn’t trust that corals could be safely shipped overnight. But 5 or 6 years ago, I gave in and started buying online. Since then, I’ve received probably 15 coral shipments in the winter (and I live Idaho), and the only DOAs I’ve had were when the corals were delayed by a day or more. Heat packs are always warm the next day (and it’s not that the pack instantly gets warm when I open the box, the top of the packing is warm). I received a shipment just a couple weeks ago, overnight temps were in upper 20s, and the temp of the water on arrival was 76°. My point is that when packaged properly, heat packs work. I’ve had much more success getting corals shipped in the dead of winter than in July or August.

 

[damsels are not mean]

This is my question for you: how many corals of boxes of coral have shipped or had shipped to you during the winter months?

i will say that for many years I was hesitant and didn’t trust that corals could be safely shipped overnight. But 5 or 6 years ago, I gave in and started buying online. Since then, I’ve received probably 15 coral shipments in the winter (and I live Idaho), and the only DOAs I’ve had were when the corals were delayed by a day or more. Heat packs are always warm the next day (and it’s not that the pack instantly gets warm when I open the box, the top of the packing is warm). I received a shipment just a couple weeks ago, overnight temps were in upper 20s, and the temp of the water on arrival was 76°. My point is that when packaged properly, heat packs work. I’ve had much more success getting corals shipped in the dead of winter than in July or August.

I think all my online coral orders have been in the winter or late fall actually. Makes sense that heat is more an issue than cold for sure.

You'd prob be the best to gather more data. I don't mean that as a dig, it's just that there prob aren't that many ppl as curious about this rabbit hole as you seem to be.

If you decide to, I would strongly reccomend what we ended up doing at the gig I mentioned when the styro in the cold room data didn't correlate.


We took 12 boxes and shipped in triplicate to 4 different destination temp ranges that represented the normal flow of our cartridges through the supply chain.

Data loggers are cheap now so that's no longer a constraint.

You just need to pack the boxes like someone really would today. Unibody with a hole on the lid and a 48hr shipping style heat pack, or a non unibody, naturally vented box.

And you'd prob want to limit to 2-3 frags given the internal volume used in to he styro from that thread @ 100ml Max/frag bag.

I think this is what I'll have to do.

 

[JNalley]

Easy test. Put two insulated boxes outside overnight, one with a heat pack, one without. You will find the one with the heat pack is warmer in the morning.
I do put a hole in the top of the insulation and tape the warmer over it.

I think the better test would be to put temp probes in both and log the temps from 6pm to 12pm (18 hours), and see if there's an initial spike and then a taper off, or if there's even heating throughout the night. I've received several packages where people aren't putting holes in the styrofoam insulation to let oxygen in and the heat packs themselves felt like they were 40 degrees, as soon as I pulled them out and shook them they heated right back up... Simply tossing a warm object (say it's 90F) into a box with corals or worse yet fish is probably the best solution right now, but there should be room for innovation... if it could keep the interior space at 78f all night that would be more beneficial than spiking to 90/100 and then tapering off to 50 instead of 40 without a pack...

 

[Jmp998]

Seems like it should be pretty easy to sort out the effectiveness of heat packs using two boxes (with and without a heat pack), and two of the Inkbird IBS-P01R Wireless Pool Thermometers which can even be submerged in a bag of water and would allow continuous monitoring. Maybe some of the vendors have already done a similar test; it seems like it would be worth the effort to reduce shipping losses/DOA's.

I think the biggest problem is that shippers don't know what temperature the package will really be exposed to-you can check the forecast, but you don't know if the package will sit outside on the tarmac somewhere for a few hours or not, which makes it hard to guess how much of a heat pack you might need to add.

​

 

[i_am_mclovin]

I was researching coral shipping and temperatures and so on and came across this older thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/heat-pack-study.96954/

It seems to be the only one I've seen with data on temperatures over several hours in the cold simulating shipping. I would love to see any and all data on this that you are aware of. Maybe I will conduct my own tests as well, but I don't have a temperature logger.

The conclusion I've drawn from the (admittedly limited) data and also the posts by others, is that typical heat packs are at best useless and at worst harmful during shipping for corals. In summary, the heat packs can't get enough oxygen after the initial supply is exhausted, so they don't actually have any effect after the first hour or so. The difference in temperature at the end of the tests results from a spike at the beginning for the tests with heat packs (which is more likely to kill your corals than slowly declining temps during overnight shipping) and multiple heat packs don't make any difference at all compared to single ones. If you were going to use a heat pack, it seems you are better off just running your frag tank hotter. After the initial spike, the temperature curve is indistinguishable between heat pack and no heat pack. Another poster claims to have run similar tests even with ventilation holes to keep the heat packs running, and found that this made little to no difference. This post doesn't come with data, but the assertions are backed by equations too.

I haven't seen any other studies or data on the topic, and although it seems intuitive that we need some way to keep our corals warm in transit, I am not sure this is the case. I have received plenty of cold (like 40s and 50s) coral packages and never lost any. Often customers find an apparently "still warm" heat pack and assume this means the coral was packed well. In reality, the heat pack likely started to heat up when they opened the package. There are plenty of anecdotes, and heat packs are an industry standard. But like many other things in hobby-based industries, industry standard methods can result from somebody smart saying something intuitive and then everyone doing that because it makes sense. The idea that heat packs keep the package warm is a comforting thought because it gives us a sense of control.

Now, we know corals will do better under warmer temperatures (although again I believe they are more resilient to short term cold than most assume), and it seems our conventional heating solutions are pretty ineffective. Are there alternatives? What about tiny electronic heating units? There are also gel-based handwarmers that are reusable. Is there any good way to store heat? I know water volume is good for this, but perhaps there are even better materials.

It's possible we don't really need heatpacks at all, and that focusing on well-sealed insulation is far more important than any sort of heat generation. What are your thoughts? Have you done any testing?

I think you missed some very important data in the post you linked. There is a significant difference in temps at the 18 hour mark even in the cases where the heat pack did not increase the temperature initially. To say heat packs are useless at best tells me you misread the data.

 

[Cabinetman]

Someone needs to start producing a cheap shipping cooler that has built in electronic capable of keeping the inside of the box at a steady desired temp. I know I’d pay extra to have my orders shipped in such a box rather than dealing with doa shipments because of a delay

 

[NickosReef]

Do they? The only data I have seen on this suggests no they do not. There just isn't enough oxygen to feed them when they are in a box. Even with ventilation.

Again, this does not really work as a test. The one with the heatpack will be hotter, but that's because the heat pack starts the box off hotter. It is like packing a coral at 85 and then comparing that to a box that is packed at 75. One needs to log the temperature over the course of the test to understand what's actually happening. A quick jump up to 85 is worse than a slow decline to 60, maybe even 50.

 

[NickosReef]

I think you missed some very important data in the post you linked. There is a significant difference in temps at the 18 hour mark even in the cases where the heat pack did not increase the temperature initially. To say heat packs are useless at best tells me you misread the data.

I think it would be easy enough to test with a couple cheap zigbee temp sensors. You could put one in each and then have data of the temp spike and decline in real time.

 

[Rick's Reviews]

I was researching coral shipping and temperatures and so on and came across this older thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/heat-pack-study.96954/

It seems to be the only one I've seen with data on temperatures over several hours in the cold simulating shipping. I would love to see any and all data on this that you are aware of. Maybe I will conduct my own tests as well, but I don't have a temperature logger.

The conclusion I've drawn from the (admittedly limited) data and also the posts by others, is that typical heat packs are at best useless and at worst harmful during shipping for corals. In summary, the heat packs can't get enough oxygen after the initial supply is exhausted, so they don't actually have any effect after the first hour or so. The difference in temperature at the end of the tests results from a spike at the beginning for the tests with heat packs (which is more likely to kill your corals than slowly declining temps during overnight shipping) and multiple heat packs don't make any difference at all compared to single ones. If you were going to use a heat pack, it seems you are better off just running your frag tank hotter. After the initial spike, the temperature curve is indistinguishable between heat pack and no heat pack. Another poster claims to have run similar tests even with ventilation holes to keep the heat packs running, and found that this made little to no difference. This post doesn't come with data, but the assertions are backed by equations too.

I haven't seen any other studies or data on the topic, and although it seems intuitive that we need some way to keep our corals warm in transit, I am not sure this is the case. I have received plenty of cold (like 40s and 50s) coral packages and never lost any. Often customers find an apparently "still warm" heat pack and assume this means the coral was packed well. In reality, the heat pack likely started to heat up when they opened the package. There are plenty of anecdotes, and heat packs are an industry standard. But like many other things in hobby-based industries, industry standard methods can result from somebody smart saying something intuitive and then everyone doing that because it makes sense. The idea that heat packs keep the package warm is a comforting thought because it gives us a sense of control.

Now, we know corals will do better under warmer temperatures (although again I believe they are more resilient to short term cold than most assume), and it seems our conventional heating solutions are pretty ineffective. Are there alternatives? What about tiny electronic heating units? There are also gel-based handwarmers that are reusable. Is there any good way to store heat? I know water volume is good for this, but perhaps there are even better materials.

It's possible we don't really need heatpacks at all, and that focusing on well-sealed insulation is far more important than any sort of heat generation. What are your thoughts? Have you done any testing?

Wow, kinda great post but best for experts in data...
1 heat pack is sufficient for 12 hours 2 X this amount is 24 hrs, my delivery is normally within 24hrs so In my opinion, I have not lost any life's in transit, I'm not a scientists but it works ... In my opinion