Are there any clean up crew vendors we trust enough not to quarantine?

Brew12

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Apples and oranges. Most marine biologists do not get fish from the same disease-ridden sources you & I do. In fact, I only know of one wholesaler that sells to public aquariums, and all fish are treated via chemoprophylaxis because these are important clients to the wholesaler. (Most public aquariums I work with also medicate all incoming fish at a separate facility.) Trying to use the advice of marine biologists to advocate not prophylactically treating is akin to someone who is surrounded by arm guards advocating gun control (for everyone else.)
Let's put my comment back into context.
So why risk a wipeout? I've gone through it. I don't ever want to experience it again. And there's TTM where no copper is used. That's how I QT. Studies have all been done. You're saying all those marine biologists and experts like Humblefish are wrong? It's just the majority don't research or care to QT so you tend to hear more "I don't QT and have been fine etc." compared to the hobbyists that QT.
It was in reply to this comment. The member claimed that not doing prophylactic treatment is against the recommendations of marine biologists and, based on my experience, that is not the case.

My comment was not apples and oranges. It was directly related and applicable to the comment I was responding to.
 

Humblefish

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Let's put my comment back into context.

It was in reply to this comment. The member claimed that not doing prophylactic treatment is against the recommendations of marine biologists and, based on my experience, that is not the case.

My comment was not apples and oranges. It was directly related and applicable to the comment I was responding to.

The point I was trying to make is that advice given by marine biologists is not always applicable to home aquarists. Because they are operating on a completely different playing field. Thus, my apples to oranges comparison.
 

MnFish1

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The point I was trying to make is that advice given by marine biologists is not always applicable to home aquarists. Because they are operating on a completely different playing field. Thus, my apples to oranges comparison.
Where are marine biologists getting their fish? How do the majority of people on this site - who do not QT at all - let alone use chemicals - manage (based on surveys here) - note - this does not mean I'm for or against QT - but this doesnt make logical sense to me. Most zoos, etc - do have a biosecurity program - they just don't treat unless there is disease present - at least to my reading. ?
 

Humblefish

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Where are marine biologists getting their fish?

Most MB experiment on food fish which are sourced directly from collectors. That's where the money is, doing research that will benefit the aquafarming industry. I do know of one wholesaler who specializes in fish for public aquaria, zoos, research institutions. But unless directed otherwise, those fish are all treated prophylactically before being shipped out.

How do the majority of people on this site - who do not QT at all - let alone use chemicals - manage (based on surveys here) - note - this does not mean I'm for or against QT - but this doesnt make logical sense to me.

If the majority of people on this site who do not QT don't have any problems, then how did the fish disease forum ever gain traction in the first place? When I first started it, most questions revolved around fish dying from some disease in a DT and what to do about that. Lately the focus has shifted to fish dying in QT because it's pretty well laid out on here what to do if your DT has Ich, velvet, etc. I can tell you from less informed communities (i.e. my local FB groups), half the questions seem to be about Ich or velvet in someone's reef tank. Very few of these people QT, or believe in QT, so the main LFS around here can move 40 boxes of fish per week. Business is good! :rolleyes:

Most zoos, etc - do have a biosecurity program - they just don't treat unless there is disease present - at least to my reading. ?

I am intimately familiar with one major public aquarium's QT program, but will not disclose their name to protect their privacy. They have a separate facility dedicated to QTing all new fish. NOTHING enters their display tanks without first going through a pretty harsh battery of meds: Copper, formalin, prazi, metro and Enrofloxacin (an ABX). Most of the fish do fine, and some specimens are 10+ years old now. So, I get a chuckle when I read people worrying over the use of copper or some General Cure in food. Or how a fish's immune system is supposedly permanently damaged after being exposed to meds. Bottom line is some fish are weak and/or just not meant for life in captivity. Those fish are probably going to die, whether you QT them or not. The only question is whether you are willing to allow whatever pathogen(s) they might be carrying to enter your DT. If your existing fish have strong immune systems and/or resistance to said pathogens, they might be OK. However, it really is a crapshoot because you can never be certain of the virulence or sheer number of parasites (for example) riding in on this fish.

I know people think I am against those who are against QT. But I am actually working on a 30 minute H2O2 bath treatment which should at the very least knock off "surface" parasites & worms. It will give those who wish to QT a better starting point; for those who plop & drop, it should keep the worst parasites out of your DT. Win-win the way I see it. :)
 
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Dierks

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I ended up going with @reefcleaners for my starter CUC and so far, through the order process couldn't be happier! John is a great guy and willing to help with advise and simply to chat. Great Customer Service!
 

MnFish1

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Most MB experiment on food fish which are sourced directly from collectors. That's where the money is, doing research that will benefit the aquafarming industry. I do know of one wholesaler who specializes in fish for public aquaria, zoos, research institutions. But unless directed otherwise, those fish are all treated prophylactically before being shipped out.



If the majority of people on this site who do not QT don't have any problems, then how did the fish disease forum ever gain traction in the first place? When I first started it, most questions revolved around fish dying from some disease in a DT and what to do about that. Lately the focus has shifted to fish dying in QT because it's pretty well laid out on here what to do if your DT has Ich, velvet, etc. I can tell you from less informed communities (i.e. my local FB groups), half the questions seem to be about Ich or velvet in someone's reef tank. Very few of these people QT, or believe in QT, so the main LFS around here can move 40 boxes of fish per week. Business is good! :rolleyes:



I am intimately familiar with one major public aquarium's QT program, but will not disclose their name to protect their privacy. They have a separate facility dedicated to QTing all new fish. NOTHING enters their display tanks without first going through a pretty harsh battery of meds: Copper, formalin, prazi, metro and Enrofloxacin (an ABX). Most of the fish do fine, and some specimens are 10+ years old now. So, I get a chuckle when I read people worrying over the use of copper or some General Cure in food. Or how a fish's immune system is supposedly permanently damaged after being exposed to meds. Bottom line is some fish are weak and/or just not meant for life in captivity. Those fish are probably going to die, whether you QT them or not. The only question is whether you are willing to allow whatever pathogen(s) they might be carrying to enter your DT. If your existing fish have strong immune systems and/or resistance to said pathogens, they might be OK. However, it really is a crapshoot because you can never be certain of the virulence or sheer number of parasites (for example) riding in on this fish.

I know people think I am against those who are against QT. But I am actually working on a 30 minute H2O2 bath treatment which should at the very least knock off "surface" parasites & worms. It will give those who wish to QT a better starting point; for those who plop & drop, it should keep the worst parasites out of your DT. Win-win the way I see it. :)
Thanks. Actually- in several studies (in addition to getting fish from collectors - at least in a couple studies - they have taken similar steps to make sure the 'studied fish' - mullet, etc - did not have (and hadn't been exposed to CI) - I agree with everything you say - btw - Thanks for your well - thought out answer
 

Humblefish

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@Mortie31 First off, I see you live in the UK which might as well be a different planet when it comes to fishkeeping. Wholesalers and retailers in Europe actually have scruples when dealing in live animals, which is a stark contrast to how morally bankrupt the aquarium industry is here in the US. For example, most European wholesalers have a sterilisation program to prevent pathogens from building up in their systems. Of course, EU regulations help ensure they follow through with this. Over here it's like the wild, wild west and everything is all about the bottom line. Some wholesalers don't even feed their fish - unless you call throwing flake food in a tank with fish recently plucked out of the ocean an attempt at feeding. :confused:

So, UK reefers are going to have a better starting point and not encounter as many pathogens as their US counterparts. Passive observation in QT becomes a lot more doable when the odds of encountering a virulent disease are greatly diminished. When I lived over there, the greatest threat was Cryptocaryon aka White Spot. A relatively mild parasite which many aquarists have learned to successfully manage in their DT. I get in 70-80 fish at a time, and we jokingly refer to it as "The Fish Apocalypse". It's not really funny, but I have to infuse humor into the situation to prevent myself from having a nervous breakdown from what I see inside those bags. ;Vomit

About chemoquarantine... It's not a "good thing"; but rather a necessary evil over here right now. Because the odds of encountering Amyloodinium, Brooklynella, etc. are high, and by the time most hobbyists notice symptoms it's too little too late to save the fish. Free swimming Amyloodinium dinospores, for example, can invade the gills and a fish will die due to asphyxiation before a white spot is even seen on the fish. Most people nowadays have busy lives/hectic schedules, so chemoprophylaxis makes allowances for that. But if someone has all day to sit at home, watch their fish in QT for behavioral symptoms of disease, and is aware enough to notice subtle symptoms... Then no need to dose any meds straight away!

And yes, all medications have side effects. Any chemical we intake (human or animal) has consequences. How many times is it discovered years later that some human medication has serious side effects that weren't uncovered during the trial studies? And you think someone with a PhD is going to make a serious effort to find out all the negatives of a particular fish medication?? We live in an imperfect world where all you can really do is mitigate risks. When it comes to aquarium fish; don't QT, do QT but don't treat, apply chemoprophylaxis. In this hobby, you pay your money and take your chances. :)
 

Jeeperz

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I, for one, would pay double or more for properly qt'd livestock. I'm not sure I trust myself to do it 100 percent. Especially fish. I don't really have room/time on top of work, house chores, other pets, and 3 tanks to watch a qt daily. I don't have room to keep a snail/invert/coral qt running full time with proper light for coral, when I don't buy much. If I have to pay $3-6 for each snail or crab instead of $1-2 I would.
 

CMO

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@Mortie31 First off, I see you live in the UK which might as well be a different planet when it comes to fishkeeping. Wholesalers and retailers in Europe actually have scruples when dealing in live animals, which is a stark contrast to how morally bankrupt the aquarium industry is here in the US. For example, most European wholesalers have a sterilisation program to prevent pathogens from building up in their systems. Of course, EU regulations help ensure they follow through with this. Over here it's like the wild, wild west and everything is all about the bottom line. Some wholesalers don't even feed their fish - unless you call throwing flake food in a tank with fish recently plucked out of the ocean an attempt at feeding. :confused:

So, UK reefers are going to have a better starting point and not encounter as many pathogens as their US counterparts. Passive observation in QT becomes a lot more doable when the odds of encountering a virulent disease are greatly diminished. When I lived over there, the greatest threat was Cryptocaryon aka White Spot. A relatively mild parasite which many aquarists have learned to successfully manage in their DT. I get in 70-80 fish at a time, and we jokingly refer to it as "The Fish Apocalypse". It's not really funny, but I have to infuse humor into the situation to prevent myself from having a nervous breakdown from what I see inside those bags. ;Vomit

About chemoquarantine... It's not a "good thing"; but rather a necessary evil over here right now. Because the odds of encountering Amyloodinium, Brooklynella, etc. are high, and by the time most hobbyists notice symptoms it's too little too late to save the fish. Free swimming Amyloodinium dinospores, for example, can invade the gills and a fish will die due to asphyxiation before a white spot is even seen on the fish. Most people nowadays have busy lives/hectic schedules, so chemoprophylaxis makes allowances for that. But if someone has all day to sit at home, watch their fish in QT for behavioral symptoms of disease, and is aware enough to notice subtle symptoms... Then no need to dose any meds straight away!

And yes, all medications have side effects. Any chemical we intake (human or animal) has consequences. How many times is it discovered years later that some human medication has serious side effects that weren't uncovered during the trial studies? And you think someone with a PhD is going to make a serious effort to find out all the negatives of a particular fish medication?? We live in an imperfect world where all you can really do is mitigate risks. When it comes to aquarium fish; don't QT, do QT but don't treat, apply chemoprophylaxis. In this hobby, you pay your money and take your chances. :)
It sure would be nice if we could all come together and improve the state of the US fish industry like you describe exists in Europe. Every day I look at my tanks I can't help but to feel some level of sadness for all the death and mistreatment that occurs in the process of a fish finally making it to my tank. I'd like to think that I help push the industry in the right direction by only buying from providers that at least do some level of conditioning / QT, captive breeding, responsible and sustainable collecting etc. But unfortunately I have very low hopes that enough will follow course without being forced by regulation. The reasons why vary widely IMO from ignorance, thinking in terms of getting a great "deal" (which has no place when talking about live animals IMO), to just plain not valuing the lives of fish as we do other animals. We need regulation now.
 
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Mortie31

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@Mortie31 First off, I see you live in the UK which might as well be a different planet when it comes to fishkeeping. Wholesalers and retailers in Europe actually have scruples when dealing in live animals, which is a stark contrast to how morally bankrupt the aquarium industry is here in the US. For example, most European wholesalers have a sterilisation program to prevent pathogens from building up in their systems. Of course, EU regulations help ensure they follow through with this. Over here it's like the wild, wild west and everything is all about the bottom line. Some wholesalers don't even feed their fish - unless you call throwing flake food in a tank with fish recently plucked out of the ocean an attempt at feeding. :confused:

So, UK reefers are going to have a better starting point and not encounter as many pathogens as their US counterparts. Passive observation in QT becomes a lot more doable when the odds of encountering a virulent disease are greatly diminished. When I lived over there, the greatest threat was Cryptocaryon aka White Spot. A relatively mild parasite which many aquarists have learned to successfully manage in their DT. I get in 70-80 fish at a time, and we jokingly refer to it as "The Fish Apocalypse". It's not really funny, but I have to infuse humor into the situation to prevent myself from having a nervous breakdown from what I see inside those bags. ;Vomit

About chemoquarantine... It's not a "good thing"; but rather a necessary evil over here right now. Because the odds of encountering Amyloodinium, Brooklynella, etc. are high, and by the time most hobbyists notice symptoms it's too little too late to save the fish. Free swimming Amyloodinium dinospores, for example, can invade the gills and a fish will die due to asphyxiation before a white spot is even seen on the fish. Most people nowadays have busy lives/hectic schedules, so chemoprophylaxis makes allowances for that. But if someone has all day to sit at home, watch their fish in QT for behavioral symptoms of disease, and is aware enough to notice subtle symptoms... Then no need to dose any meds straight away!

And yes, all medications have side effects. Any chemical we intake (human or animal) has consequences. How many times is it discovered years later that some human medication has serious side effects that weren't uncovered during the trial studies? And you think someone with a PhD is going to make a serious effort to find out all the negatives of a particular fish medication?? We live in an imperfect world where all you can really do is mitigate risks. When it comes to aquarium fish; don't QT, do QT but don't treat, apply chemoprophylaxis. In this hobby, you pay your money and take your chances. :)
Thankyou for taking the time to write this, I agree completely about different standards of regulation in Europe, in addition I also think a big factor is the relationships we build up with our LFS and the trust that comes with this, an example is i asked a fish shop (not that local a 4hour round trip) if they could look out for a Jordani wrasse for me, this was 12 weeks ago, they got one in a week ago and they will hold it until I can get to them, no deposit, mutual respect... They messaged me yesterday saying it wasn’t feeding well, so not to come up for a couple more weeks... these kind of relationships are very common and in the main most reefers in Europe only buy fish in person and we’re pretty vocal in talking to each other if any shops standards are slipping... I think we’re all sad really as we’ll regularly spend a day at a few LFS’s chatting, looking, spending money and enjoying it... I also think I’m pretty lucky as I have several good LFS’s within a 2 hour drive of my house...
 

Humblefish

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We need regulation now.

As much as I hate govt. regulation, that's probably the only way to rein it in. It's scary though because there's no way of knowing if that will be the death blow to our hobby. But without the govt. getting involved nothing is going to change anytime soon.

Thankyou for taking the time to write this, I agree completely about different standards of regulation in Europe, in addition I also think a big factor is the relationships we build up with our LFS and the trust that comes with this, an example is i asked a fish shop (not that local a 4hour round trip) if they could look out for a Jordani wrasse for me, this was 12 weeks ago, they got one in a week ago and they will hold it until I can get to them, no deposit, mutual respect... They messaged me yesterday saying it wasn’t feeding well, so not to come up for a couple more weeks... these kind of relationships are very common and in the main most reefers in Europe only buy fish in person and we’re pretty vocal in talking to each other if any shops standards are slipping... I think we’re all sad really as we’ll regularly spend a day at a few LFS’s chatting, looking, spending money and enjoying it... I also think I’m pretty lucky as I have several good LFS’s within a 2 hour drive of my house...

It used to be more that way over here. But nowadays people will walk out of a LFS if they can buy something $5 cheaper online. LFS are becoming more and more extinct, and with 1 to 2 day shipping nobody seems to care.
 

Humblefish

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Getting back on topic... What's so hard about putting your corals/inverts in a fishless AIO for 6 weeks? It actually serves a dual purpose: Starving out fish parasite tomonts + observing for coral pests. Dips/baths won't eliminate the eggs of planarians, AEFW, etc.
 

MnFish1

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Thankyou for taking the time to write this, I agree completely about different standards of regulation in Europe, in addition I also think a big factor is the relationships we build up with our LFS and the trust that comes with this, an example is i asked a fish shop (not that local a 4hour round trip) if they could look out for a Jordani wrasse for me, this was 12 weeks ago, they got one in a week ago and they will hold it until I can get to them, no deposit, mutual respect... They messaged me yesterday saying it wasn’t feeding well, so not to come up for a couple more weeks... these kind of relationships are very common and in the main most reefers in Europe only buy fish in person and we’re pretty vocal in talking to each other if any shops standards are slipping... I think we’re all sad really as we’ll regularly spend a day at a few LFS’s chatting, looking, spending money and enjoying it... I also think I’m pretty lucky as I have several good LFS’s within a 2 hour drive of my house...
Its not that uncommon here - with a good LFS. IME
 

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Getting back on topic... What's so hard about putting your corals/inverts in a fishless AIO for 6 weeks? It actually serves a dual purpose: Starving out fish parasite tomonts + observing for coral pests. Dips/baths won't eliminate the eggs of planarians, AEFW, etc.

So for me for example the problems is as follow. I mainly deal with acropora and have a relatively low frequency of new additions so maintaining a QT that is capable of safely housing acros for several months on an intermittent basis is actually quite challenging (or at least requires a decent amount of equipment, testing etc). And this is now in addition to a fish QT which comes before coral QT IMO.

So, as an alternative to this, for my new tank I'm taking an approach of extreme inspection instead of QT. I inspect every coral thoroughly under a microscope which is capable of showing pests and eggs. If I find any trace of a pest, It's not going in my tank end of story. I only put live clean tissue confirmed under a scope in my tank and remove all rocks, plugs etc. For something like an LPS coral with a skeleton that can't be fully removed I'll scrape and brush with peroxide, followed by a high speed Dremel brush cleaning and scope inspection (along with standard dips of course). While this might sounds crazy to some, I actually find it quite a bit easier than trying to maintain an intermittent QT with stability levels capable of housing sps.

While I don't doubt it can be done right, running a QT for many with a bunch of potentially dirty corals all housed together seems open to even more risk than what I described above as at the end of the day you are taking a coral from a tank with likely known pests and relying on visual inspection with the human eye (vs. microscope) which can easily miss things.

So far the coral scoping project is working out very well and I'm quite confident that no pests are getting in my tank with this procedure. Time will tell though.
 

Humblefish

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I've been thinking about acros lately, and it seems highly unlikely that tomonts would encyst to the tissue. The danger would be the plug and if there happened to be any part that was bleached. But if it's a healthy frag then mounting it on a new plug and a quick rinse ought to do it.
 

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Funny, I was wondering for the past few days if there's a such thing as a vendor who QTs CUCs.

Time for me to set up a 5gal QT frag tank; I just need to QT like 2-3 snails... might as well buy a few frags to fill it out too ;Happy
 

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No doubt you can have a thriving reef with these "pests". But, it is possible to prevent them and I'd rather not as things like bryopsis can be a real pain even with floconazole treatments. The point of my posts here are that people's definition of what is considered a "pest" is a bit different and to make blanket statements (this is not directed at you) that everything has been "fine" from a particular vendor without mention of what you consider to be a problem pest is unfair. As pointed out, many of the people that claim to have no issue do in fact have many of the "pests" I mention in their tanks that could have come from these "clean" CUC vendors. There's simply more to invert QT than fish diseases is all I wanted to point out.

I agree that a vendor's definition of a pest and even one reefer vs another reefer's definition of a pest can and does vary. That's why I find leaving an honest review about a vendor difficult. I had to change my terminology in a review once because a vendor believed I was misleading people using the word "pest." According to the vendor, all tanks have algae, but I introduced Bryopsis and turf algae to my quarantine tank even after dipping. It took over my quarantine tank and an extended floconazole treatment had to be done. My whole tank was thrown out of whack after the treatment. I lost some of my more sensitive coral frags, and most of my anemones, and I'm still trying to get things back in order in that tank months later...so yes, I define some algaes as pests, even plagues. If it means anything, the cleanest frags I've ever purchased came from Aqua SD. I would not hesitate to buy from this vendor again.
 

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I'm just a crazy man obsessed with fish diseases. ;)

@Humblefish: Thank goodness for the "crazy man obsessed with fish diseases!" Your "humble" expertise has saved the lives of several of my fish over the last few years! I am most grateful!
 

Jeeperz

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My issue is having to keep a stable qt tank for the few corals I may purchase each year and maybe the dozen or so snails or crabs I aquire in the same time frame. I find it difficult enough to maintain 3 tanks so I am willing to pay significantly more for pre quarantined. I purchase my tailspot blenny pre qt'd but feel he was just observed as he's the only fish that I've had show signs of anything (one eye got huge) I dosed stress guard for weeks and it went away. Some have the ability to put in the legwork and expense, I'm willing to pay for that part already done.
 

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