Are there any clean up crew vendors we trust enough not to quarantine?

[CMO]

What do you base those procedures on? I have had tanks for >20 years and have never had a problem. Having done nothing. So - how do you know that your procedures had an effect vs just luck?

Thats a serious question BTW - not a snarky reply. How do you know that peroxide 'dips' has any effects on bryopsis?

I've also had tanks for quite a while (about 15 years) and never had any issues with algae until I got bryopsis in my current display. I've tested bryopsis in peroxide dips and it definitely kills it so that is my evidence. And these procedures are simply based on my experience and various trial and error experiments over the years.

 

[CMO]

I don't care about algae, its never been a problem for me, because my tanks have algae. I guess you could scrub their shells. I only worry about introducing parasites. That is why I fallow...

If your nutrients are under control wouldn't it be a non-issue anyway?

I'd disagree with that last comment. I run a very low nutrient SPS reef and Bryopsis is perfectly happy growing in this environment.

 

[MnFish1]

I've also had tanks for quite a while (about 15 years) and never had any issues with algae until I got bryopsis in my current display. I've tested bryopsis in peroxide dips and it definitely kills it so that is my evidence. And these procedures are simply based on my experience and various trial and error experiments over the years.

Curious for the point of education - what did you do before the dips. How do you prove that H2O2 Kills ONLY bryopsis - and not the thing you're quarantining

 

[MnFish1]

I've also had tanks for quite a while (about 15 years) and never had any issues with algae until I got bryopsis in my current display. I've tested bryopsis in peroxide dips and it definitely kills it so that is my evidence. And these procedures are simply based on my experience and various trial and error experiments over the years.

PS can you describe yoru method? Peroxide dips - is pretty general?

 

[HotRocks]

I'd disagree with that last comment. I run a very low nutrient SPS reef and Bryopsis is perfectly happy growing in this environment.

It was a question not a comment. I have never dealt with bryopsis so no experience from me on that one.

 

[CMO]

Curious for the point of education - what did you do before the dips. How do you prove that H2O2 Kills ONLY bryopsis - and not the thing you're quarantining

PS can you describe yoru method? Peroxide dips - is pretty general?

The only coral I will completely dip in peroxide are zoas. For all other corals I only dip the exposed skeleton, branch etc. that is left after trimming as much as I can. For CUC, I hold them upside down in the solution by hand so it only gets on the shell. I've been doing a 50/50 dip for 2 minutes followed by dremel brush scrub and scraping for any growths / spores.

But keep in mind I'm simply sharing my ideas and don't claim that these are 100% proven methods. However, with a lower level of these same procedures I've been successful with not introducing any pests beyond Bryopsis and Vermetid snails in my current display over the course of adding about 120+ corals over the past 2 years. To attain these results absent QT I've been doing thorough inspections with a magnifying loupe, 10 minute coral RX dip and scrubbing with a brush.

Current procedures now replace magnifying loupe with higher power scope, add peroxide dips, plug removal and near complete removal of all rock / skeleton so only clean live tissue verified by scope goes into the tank (and covering with glue any remaining skeleton for corals where that's possible), and high speed dremel brushing along with standard hand brush.

I'm simply frustrated having to deal with these pests so I'm trying a bit of a different approach as I enter the coral selling market soon... Having bought corals from may respected sellers that claim 100% full QT and still see pests I'm not convinced traditional QT is the answer.

And hey, maybe there is no real solution to some of this stuff. I'm just trying and sharing my experience along the way. If it doesn't work out I'll be the first to admit it and welcome any feedback that can identify weak spots in these approaches.

 

[Brew12]

I hold them upside down in the solution by hand so it only gets on the shell. I've been doing a 50/50 dip for 2 minutes followed by dremel brush scrub and scraping for any growths / spores.

I've also had good luck on zoa's with a 75% water, 25% of the 3% H2O2 for 5 minutes. Cleans the frag nicely and haven't lost a zoa from it yet.

 

[MTBake]

Interesting thread.

In response to the op;

I have ordered cuc from reefcleaners and Live Aquaria. Probably a dozen times from each in fact. I have never had an issue from either. I also pick up cuc memebers from one of 3 lfs near me.

Having said that;

I do not qt cuc. I just do a temperature acclimation and drop them in. However, I do use an observation tank for fish I'm not getting from someone I personally know and am friends with. Same goes for coral. I do not medicate or dip unless absolutely necessary.

Disclaimer;

I am far from an expert. Just someone that has kept a saltwater tank in one form or another for the past 15 years.

 

[MnFish1]

The only coral I will completely dip in peroxide are zoas. For all other corals I only dip the exposed skeleton, branch etc. that is left after trimming as much as I can. For CUC, I hold them upside down in the solution by hand so it only gets on the shell. I've been doing a 50/50 dip for 2 minutes followed by dremel brush scrub and scraping for any growths / spores.

But keep in mind I'm simply sharing my ideas and don't claim that these are 100% proven methods. However, with a lower level of these same procedures I've been successful with not introducing any pests beyond Bryopsis and Vermetid snails in my current display over the course of adding about 120+ corals over the past 2 years. To attain these results absent QT I've been doing thorough inspections with a magnifying loupe, 10 minute coral RX dip and scrubbing with a brush.

Current procedures now replace magnifying loupe with higher power scope, add peroxide dips, plug removal and near complete removal of all rock / skeleton so only clean live tissue verified by scope goes into the tank (and covering with glue any remaining skeleton for corals where that's possible), and high speed dremel brushing along with standard hand brush.

I'm simply frustrated having to deal with these pests so I'm trying a bit of a different approach as I enter the coral selling market soon... Having bought corals from may respected sellers that claim 100% full QT and still see pests I'm not convinced traditional QT is the answer.

And hey, maybe there is no real solution to some of this stuff. I'm just trying and sharing my experience along the way. If it doesn't work out I'll be the first to admit it and welcome any feedback that can identify weak spots in these approaches.

Agreed thanks

 

[Sashaka]

I do not think you can kill spores from algae such as those with a dip. They are microscopic. Interestingly. I had a leather coral that I pulled off a rock (it was huge) 6 years ago - there was a piece left that was less than 1/8 of an inch. Over the least year (in the same spot.) the leather coral is growing back. In order to have these algae grow - you need to have the 'conditions' in the tank for them to grow - avoid these - and you will not have 'pest algae'

Oddly enough, I cannot keep softies alive. No hair algae in that tank either, mostly lps. Someone here told me my tank might not have enough nutrients for softies. Yet, when Bryopsis is introduced, it grows like wildfire. . I've had to battle it twice. I'm not sure why that is, but it is.

 

[Zoaologist]

I recommend algae barn. I’ve never had any issues.

 

[Sashaka]

I dont think anyone said or implied that you did anything wrong?

No, the behavior is what was addressed as annoying and "I" felt I fit the bill. I just wanted to apologize if I offended anyone...just in case. I hate upsetting people and yet I do tend to put my foot in my mouth from time to time.

 

[MnFish1]

No, the behavior is what was addressed as annoying and "I" felt I fit the bill. I just wanted to apologize if I offended anyone...just in case. I hate upsetting people and yet I do tend to put my foot in my mouth from time to time.

I dont think you did

 

[Sashaka]

I've also had tanks for quite a while (about 15 years) and never had any issues with algae until I got bryopsis in my current display. I've tested bryopsis in peroxide dips and it definitely kills it so that is my evidence. And these procedures are simply based on my experience and various trial and error experiments over the years.

I always have 35% H202 on hand to dilute as I run Sochting Oxydators in some of my tanks. I diluted down to 6% and held the plugs in the solution for 3 minutes. While it seemed to help, it did not completely rid the plugs of the plague. I should have kept the plugs in the solution for 5 minutes or longer I guess. Really, what I should have done is removed the corals from the plugs and super glued them to rubble. I had plenty of that on hand but I didn't think of it at the time. I wanted plugs to fit in my rack.

 

[MTBake]

No, the behavior is what was addressed as annoying and "I" felt I fit the bill. I just wanted to apologize if I offended anyone...just in case. I hate upsetting people and yet I do tend to put my foot in my mouth from time to time.

It's all healthy debate from what I've read. Nothing offensive at all, imo.

 

[Humblefish]

I'm suddenly feeling quite discouraged. I feel like I might be one of the people that you're talking about. I've been keeping saltwater tanks for 10 years and I'm still coming across things I've never seen or dealt with before, so I still turn to others here for advice, and I'm grateful for that advice, both the pros and cons of which I know I will need to wade through. I know I will need to choose the path I feel most capable of carrying out with some degree of success - based on my own level of comfort in the hobby. The fact that I share my experiential and secondhand knowledge with others seeking help is meant to support R2R members, give something back. It is not meant to annoy.

I do treat prophylactically. As humans, we are creatures driven to make decisions based on personal experiences. For example, my dogs may not have visible tics on their bodies, but I know the odds are high a tic will eventually bite one of my dogs for two reasons. 1) I live out in the middle of nowhere, prime tic country. 2) I've been bitten multiple times myself over the years in my own backyard. So, I'm going to use flee meds prophylactically. Likewise, I've had enough fish come to me sick from multiple places both from LFS and online vendors to know the odds are not in my favor that I will not get in a sick fish. Isn't R2R all about encouraging each other to find enjoyment in this hobby regardless of which side of the tank we swim in when it comes to prophylactic treatments?

Though I often post links shared by people I feel are experts here at R2R, (@Humblefish and @HotRocks among others) I know not everyone will agree with some of the directions I provide or even agree with the 'experts' I choose to put my trust in and reference. I know that success in this hobby can be found through different methods and no one way is all right or all wrong. I do try to give credit to authors when I know where the info came from using an @ symbol or a link to a specific post, but after years in the hobby, the truth is I don't always remember where I have learn all the practices I do to take care of my tanks. Sadly, some of what I do has been learned through trial and error before finding R2R. If sharing that info is being presumptuous or impudent-seen as a way of pushing unfounded personal opinions about the hobby onto others, my sincere apologies. That was not my intention. I simply want to help others find joy in the hobby. I didn't realize responding as I was doing was wrong or in the very least annoying to long-time reefers. ;Wideyed

You're not the problem. The problem is some people are now obsessing over this issue. Let's find some common ground:

1. NOTHING is 100% effective or works 100% of the time. 100% doesn't exist. The best you can do is mitigate risks.
2. You should do everything you can to bolster the health of your animals. Food soak vitamins (but not amino acids) whilst your fish are in QT, the same as you would when they're in the DT. Use frozen which contains probiotics (like LRS). If it makes you feel better, run a UV or diatom filter or oxydator in your DT (whether you QT or not).
3. If you want to just passively observe in QT, at least house a few black mollies in there for disease detection: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/black-molly-quarantine.640235/
4. If you want to just passively observe in QT, have all the medications you need and a hospital tank on standby just in case you need to medicate. Most fish will be dead from Velvet before Amazon can deliver in 2 days.
5. Stick a small AIO in a corner, and put any new corals/inverts in there. If for no other reason than to watch for coral pests. I haven't kept SPS in awhile, but AEFW are a real PITA, and back in the old days you had to dose Interceptor to clear out these pests. (Maybe there is a better/easier way now?) But with acro frags now costing hundreds or even thousands of dollars, why risk your DT? And if you can house your corals/inverts in a fishless AIO for 6 weeks that will also protect against 99% of fish parasite tomonts. Dual purpose.

 

[skyrne_isk]

I'd like to think that I help push the industry in the right direction by only buying from providers that at least do some level of conditioning / QT, captive breeding, responsible and sustainable collecting etc. But unfortunately I have very low hopes that enough will follow course without being forced by regulation. The reasons why vary widely IMO from ignorance, thinking in terms of getting a great "deal" (which has no place when talking about live animals IMO), to just plain not valuing the lives of fish as we do other animals. We need regulation now.

I couldn't disagree more. You know what already regulates and governs the condition and caretaking of fish animals? The businesses' desire for profit and our desire for value. No importer/exporter/retailer who takes bad care of stock gets repeat business - there are regularly threads here where folks comment on business who have poor practices - they don't last long. That's because we are regulating the behavior of these companies by either supporting them or not. That's regulation I can get behind. I don't shop with online vendors based on price - that's for sure. I want a guarantee of some kind and a reputation I know of. Liveaquaria (their recent struggles noted) stands out as someone who we all valued because of how they tended to care for the animals they ship to us. Our decisions and assessments on acceptable quality dictates market behavior of those on the supply side. No political body is going to know better what conditions to ask for than those of us who willingly transact on marine ornamentals and keep them in glass boxes. We need to accept this responsibility and act accordingly - not ask someone else to do it for us. /rant

 

[CMO]

I couldn't disagree more. You know what already regulates and governs the condition and caretaking of fish animals? The businesses' desire for profit and our desire for value. No importer/exporter/retailer who takes bad care of stock gets repeat business - there are regularly threads here where folks comment on business who have poor practices - they don't last long. That's because we are regulating the behavior of these companies by either supporting them or not. That's regulation I can get behind. I don't shop with online vendors based on price - that's for sure. I want a guarantee of some kind and a reputation I know of. Liveaquaria (their recent struggles noted) stands out as someone who we all valued because of how they tended to care for the animals they ship to us. Our decisions and assessments on acceptable quality dictates market behavior of those on the supply side. No political body is going to know better what conditions to ask for than those of us who willingly transact on marine ornamentals and keep them in glass boxes. We need to accept this responsibility and act accordingly - not ask someone else to do it for us. /rant

I also couldn't disagree more with this common utopian capitalist logic you describe here (and many others do as well). In reality, even in a highly capitalistic society, it's more complicated than econ 101 capitalism and regulation is needed in certain areas as profit motives do not always protect and preserve things like the environment (including animals). Unregulated capitalism will drive many animals to extinction for the sake of profits for example as their habitats are destroyed.

On average, collection practices and care of fish within the wholesale / retail chain is simply not good and there is in fact A LOT of death that occurs within the supply chain. The fact is, the life of a fish simply isn't worth much in dollars as the bulk collection costs are low and these suppliers can still be highly profitable even with very high death rates. Furthermore, much of the tragedy that's going on is not easy to see and can only really be known by industry insiders or through reading research articles on the topic. Also, you mention LA as one of the better sellers out there which is known to ship plenty of diseased fish (if you meant Divers Den then I'd agree they do a much better job, but LA California, definitely not).

Given this, IMO the only way to reduce fish death and disease is with regulation. Neither consumers nor suppliers will step up on average without being forced to (yes some level of self regulation will occur but the results of this as seen currently are far from human levels IMO). At the end of the day, humans are unfortunately greedy and selfish beings which is why I prefer to hang out with animals .

Disclaimer: these topics can get combative. This is simply my opinion and I respect your's as well. I mean no offence.

 

[skyrne_isk]

At the end of the day, humans are unfortunately greedy and selfish beings which is why I prefer to hang out with animals .

Duly noted and readily apparent. But this, I think, says more about you than others

I for one, am increasingly paranoid about potentially adding parasites - for things like snails I haven't typically added to a QT reef I keep (too hard to find and pick them all back out). But for things like starfish, cucumbers I have been. So not very consistent, I'll agree. Over the last 10 years, never had an outbreak that directly followed a clean up crew addition. YMMV. It probably makes sense and is conceptually sound to not let any live/wet anything into an established reef. I definitely agree with others sentiment on here that having QT'd inverts would be worth a premium.

 

[CMO]

Duly noted and readily apparent. But this, I think, says more about you than others

This also, I think, says more about you than others. There, we agree.