Are vendors responsible for live delivery of Coral????

[Reefer1978]

Lots of vendors these days started adding "Not responsible for shipping delays" in their policies, to the point that even folks on the forum are doing it. Did anyone actually check with an attorney if it's legal? A sale is an exchange of money for goods, in our case specifically for a live animal. If the animal is delivered dead, seller didn't meet their contract obligation. So what does the community think? What do vendors think? (I hope you will participate).

 

[Fishbird]

I think it depends what they mean by "not responsible for shipping delays". Are they really saying that they won't refund your money if an animal arrives dead?

Are they saying they'll provide store credit for a doa caused by a shipping delay and they'll provide a direct refund if a non-delayed animal dies?

Are they just saying "don't yell at me if you ordered your coral knowing you'd be out of town shortly after it arrived and now that it's delayed you'll be out of town when it arrives"?

I think that as long as you are clear on exactly what the policy is from that particular vendor, you are free to choose whether or not to purchase from them. If you are very clear on the policy, willing to risk it, and then get mad if it doesn't go well, that's on the customer.

I also suspect that if vendors said "not currently shipping at all because we've had too many delays" we'd see people here complaining about that.

In short, find out exactly what the policy is and then choose whether or not to order.

 

[homer1475]

I've never seen a DOA not upheld with a vendor.

Shipping delays are out of their control, and they should not be held responsible if a delivery company can not deliver within their own windows the vendor pays for. Shippers should cover the loss, but most shippers do not cover live animals, and carry that in the TOS. If a vendor does ship, and one looses the specimen due to shipping delays, vendor nor, shipper are responsible.

It's the price you pay for having live animals shipped.

 

[andrewey]

These are EXTRAORDINARY times and the vendors fo the most part are being honest. All major carriers have eliminated their mail guarantees. If the person delivering it can't make a guarantee, how could the sender? If you want a guarantee during Covid, don't order online or if you do, understand the nature of the risk. The point above is restricted to shipping delays, not general DOA policies.

 

[acro-ed]

As a legal issue it is no different than FOB Origin shipping terms from a manufacturer/Seller in a different industry. Simply put, the terms of the sale are what governs the risk of loss. The Seller could simply say "you are purchasing FOB my home/business" and then set up shipping in accordance with your wishes; that would put the risk of loss on the buyer. Now, in the aquarium trade I haven't seen people phrase it like that with Incoterms/legalese, but that is effectively what is being done.

 

[Reefer1978]

I think it depends what they mean by "not responsible for shipping delays". Are they really saying that they won't refund your money if an animal arrives dead?

Are they saying they'll provide store credit for a doa caused by a shipping delay and they'll provide a direct refund if a non-delayed animal dies?

Are they just saying "don't yell at me if you ordered your coral knowing you'd be out of town shortly after it arrived and now that it's delayed you'll be out of town when it arrives"?

I don't know - that's why I am asking. They don't go into details. A vendor out of Florida (Rainbow Reefs) took a stance that sorry, you are out of luck. Got blasted on Saltwater Scammers real quick and pretty much made a solid attempt to destroy her business.

I've never seen a DOA not upheld with a vendor.

Shipping delays are out of their control, and they should not be held responsible if a delivery company can not deliver within their own windows the vendor pays for. Shippers should cover the loss, but most shippers do not cover live animals, and carry that in the TOS. If a vendor does ship, and one looses the specimen due to shipping delays, vendor nor, shipper are responsible.

It's the price you pay for having live animals shipped.

I agree shippers should cover the cost, I couldn't agree more. But what happens if they don't? Are you saying for example, that if I I am a vendor, I ship one of my high-end coral that's over 1k, Fedex delays it by a day, it dies, I am off the hook? That just seems strange to me. Vendors are businesses, this is the cost of doing business. Vendors want people in the hobby. If someone buys a super expensive coral, it dies and they are our of luck - they are likely to quit the hobby. I don't think that helps anyone.

 

[Reefer1978]

These are EXTRAORDINARY times and the vendors fo the most part are being honest. All major carriers have eliminated their mail guarantees. If the person delivering it can't make a guarantee, how could the sender? If you want a guarantee during Covid, don't order online or if you do, understand the nature of the risk. The point above is restricted to shipping delays, not general DOA policies.

If I can make your response a bit more dramatic and unrealistic, you are saying it's covid, EVERYONE should stop buying online and put these vendors out of business? Is that a win?

As a legal issue it is no different than FOB Origin shipping terms from a manufacturer/Seller in a different industry. Simply put, the terms of the sale are what governs the risk of loss. The Seller could simply say "you are purchasing FOB my home/business" and then set up shipping in accordance with your wishes; that would put the risk of loss on the buyer. Now, in the aquarium trade I haven't seen people phrase it like that with Incoterms/legalese, but that is effectively what is being done.

I am not an expert in legal terms but super interested in the topic. Could you tell me more please?

 

[Fishbird]

I don't know - that's why I am asking. They don't go into details. A vendor out of Florida (Rainbow Reefs) took a stance that sorry, you are out of luck. Got blasted on Saltwater Scammers real quick and pretty much made a solid attempt to destroy her business.

I'm saying if you want to order from somebody, ask them what they mean. Send an email before you place your order. If they won't tell you what they mean, buy from somebody who will clarify.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

I think someone nailed it with the covid thing. It seems every shipping provider states that they are experiencing shipping delays due to covid. If the carrier can’t commit to a date then neither will the vendor and so goes the guarantee.

 

[homer1475]

Fedex and big brown in their TOS say they are not responsible for shipping live animals. This is why vendors cannot put insurance on said packages. This is also why they(shippers) are not responsible for death in shipping.

Sucks, but it's why it's a flip of the coin when buying and having live animals shipped. Most vendors realize this, and have learned over the years to package corals/fish with a slight delay in mind.

For me living in a rural area, 10am guaranteed delivery from either shipper means by 4pm. I tell vendors this and things are usually packed accordingly. Even had a coral sit for the entire weekend in a warehouse and it arrived without issues on monday by 4pm.

 

[acro-ed]

From a business operations standpoint the best thing anyone could do is make their risk of loss position VERY clear prior to purchase. I don't believe the Seller should bear the entire risk of loss either. With the delays we are seeing right now it seems to be that both parties should bear the risk together. It's not right for a buyer to pay money for something that arrives dead, and it's also not right for a Seller to grow/pack/ship and receive no benefit either. The reality is that the Shipper/carrier will NOT cover it, and Buyer and Seller have to accept that and create terms that are mutually agreeable. A realistic approach is to receive a 50% refund but it's entirely up to the business and the terms of the sale. It's also not fair to impose some kind of "industry wide" position if a certain Seller has created clear risk of loss terms. Your sale is subject to the terms of your sale.

 

[Fishbird]

If I can make your response a bit more dramatic and unrealistic, you are saying it's covid, EVERYONE should stop buying online and put these vendors out of business? Is that a win?

I think @andrewey was saying if you're not willing to clarify the vendor's policy and you want to buy coral online and are unwilling to wait and/or unwilling to shop locally then yes, you have to accept that a sender cannot force a shipping company to deliver the coral on time when the shipping company has explicitly stated that they are not guaranteeing arrival times.

I didn't see andrewey saying that everybody should boycott all coral vendors and force them to go out of business. (It's also not good for a vendor's business if they have to refund every purchase that people make because the corals get delayed and die in the mail. That's a good way to make a shop go out of business.) If you as the buyer are not comfortable with the terms of a transaction...you should not engage in the transaction.

I think coral vendors should be willing to clarify their policy. I think it's up to individual vendors how they want to handle selling corals in certain price brackets given the uncertainty with shipping. Again, if they are unwilling to clarify their policy then I would say they are shady and don't do business with them. But its on the consumer to at least ask for a clarification before jumping to conclusions, and as others have said, there has to be some middle ground for refunds. But you don't have to order anything if you are not comfortable with the terms.

 

[monti mike]

If I can make your response a bit more dramatic and unrealistic, you are saying it's covid, EVERYONE should stop buying online and put these vendors out of business? Is that a win?



I am not an expert in legal terms but super interested in the topic. Could you tell me more please?

It’s a term that explains when ownership of a purchase transfers from the seller to the buyer. FOB Shipping Point means that as soon as the shipment leaves the seller, ownership transferred to the buyer- so the seller isn’t necessarily responsible anymore once they mail the package out.

 

[Devaji]

IMHO its a gray area- I feel for both the vendors , the customer and the animal nobody win here. if UPS and Fedex are having delays I would just hold off for a few months. maybe one could ask the vendor for % of pkgs that arrived on time to evaluate your risk. sucks for me as the closest "LFS" is 2.5-3 hrs drive each way so 95% of all my live goods come from online.

I really hope this is over in 3 months as I will new tank will be up and hopefully ready to stock .

 

[Arsenix2001]

Yup really seems up to the vendor on this one. Most are being good about it. My uncle ordered from TSM and the shipment got hung up at UPS warehouse over the weekend and a few fish didn't make it and they comped him. Salty underground actually went as far as to replace a royal gramma for me that arrived alive but dissapeared shortly there after with another fish of higher cost without even being asked. So shout out to them .

 

[Reefer1978]

But will it hold up in court? And do vendors really want to fly all over the country to deal with small claim cases?

 

[Reefer1978]

I still think we, as consumers are in the wrong here. To me, it's like ordering sushi in the summer, it's riskier, raw fish + heat don't mix well. I still don't expect to get sick, and if I do get sick, believe me I expect a refund. Sushi gets delivered stinky, it's getting refunded. No questions asked. It's the cost of doing business.

 

[acro-ed]

But will it hold up in court? And do vendors really want to fly all over the country to deal with small claim cases?

Whether it holds up in Court is a question of what terms were conveyed to the Buyer at the time of sale. If the terms are "Live arrival guaranteed IF shipment is delivered on time; not responsible for shipping delays" that is a contingent risk of loss transfer and is legally valid if it was properly conveyed to the Buyer.

The Buyer should not assume any consistency between Sellers as to such terms and you need to read their policies carefully to understand your risk of loss.

In the event the Seller has NOT clearly stated such terms there is certainly grounds for a dispute and you MAY be able to sue them to recover your loss, but I highly doubt it would be worth it to bother (unless it were an extremely expensive order).

In the event the Seller HAS clearly stated terms and the Buyer later has remorse about their risk of loss they shouldn't be compelled to damage the reputation of the Seller just because they don't like the terms they agreed to after the fact.

Having a clearly stated policy is critical to keeping everyone happy (and honest). Some Sellers are creating their own problems by not having a clearly delineated policy.

 

[92Miata]

I won't order if a vendor doesn't guarantee. I'm paying for an animal, not best effort.

Insurance exists for this sort of thing. Businesses can insure pretty much anything - it just costs money.

 

[andrewey]

In the event the Seller HAS clearly stated terms and the Buyer later has remorse about their risk of loss they shouldn't be compelled to damage the reputation of the Seller just because they don't like the terms they agreed to after the fact.

This entire answer is incredibly well written. I found this point of yours to be quiet salient:

" In the event the Seller HAS clearly stated terms and the Buyer later has remorse about their risk of loss they shouldn't be compelled to damage the reputation of the Seller just because they don't like the terms they agreed to after the fact. "