Are vendors responsible for live delivery of Coral????

Are vendors responsible for live delivery of Coral????

  • Yes, vendors are 100% Responsible

    Votes: 101 67.3%
  • No, this is a hobby and best effort is ok

    Votes: 26 17.3%
  • I am just as confused as you are and hope vendors / sellers will chime in

    Votes: 23 15.3%

  • Total voters
    150

RobB'z Reef

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Most online stores are able to buy their inventory at wholesale prices, than they add a Mark up to buyers. So I doubt that they're really losing a ton of money when they replace dead losses.
But when you or I sell said item we are losing the money if it arrives dead.
Right now I refuse to take the risk of shipping livestock. Jmho
haha that's a rabbit hole of a discusion... what is the true COGS for a given coral to a particular Vendor :)
 

Sisterlimonpot

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It’s a term that explains when ownership of a purchase transfers from the seller to the buyer. FOB Shipping Point means that as soon as the shipment leaves the seller, ownership transferred to the buyer- so the seller isn’t necessarily responsible anymore once they mail the package out.
As i'm not familiar, I had to look up FOB and it seems that it's used specifically for shipments that use the sea of waterways. I'm not sure if @acro-ed was just using "FOB Origin" as an example to drive a point.

Further reading explained the difference between "FOB Origin" and "FOB Destination" which dictates when the transaction is complete (when the seller is off the hook and get's paid), when it is sent or when it is received.

And that ties into what this whole thread is about, "At what point does the seller wash his hands?", "And what entices a buyer to accept risk?"

And the answers to those questions aren't hard and fast. It's up to the seller to understand the terms, but if I were made aware that I [buyer] assumed all risk of death the minute the package leaves the sellers hands, I don't think I would be purchasing anything living based on those terms, but others may very well assume that risk.
 

acro-ed

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As i'm not familiar, I had to look up FOB and it seems that it's used specifically for shipments that use the sea of waterways. I'm not sure if @acro-ed was just using "FOB Origin" as an example to drive a point.

Further reading explained the difference between "FOB Origin" and "FOB Destination" which dictates when the transaction is complete (when the seller is off the hook and get's paid), when it is sent or when it is received.

And that ties into what this whole thread is about, "At what point does the seller wash his hands?", "And what entices a buyer to accept risk?"

And the answers to those questions aren't hard and fast. It's up to the seller to understand the terms, but if I were made aware that I [buyer] assumed all risk of death the minute the package leaves the sellers hands, I don't think I would be purchasing anything living based on those terms, but others may very well assume that risk.

The term/acronym FOB began with ocean shipping but is used commonly in the US now for all sorts of domestic shipment of goods. The concept does two things, it designates who is responsible for payment of shipping costs, and also denotes the transfer of the risk of loss. I brought up this point to demonstrate that the concept of risk of loss is dealt with already in many other industries and the core concept isn't really any different; its just that the understanding and acknowledgement in this industry seem to be lacking in some situations (on both Buyers and Sellers).

Usually insurance can be purchased through the common carrier which acts as an intermediary in the risk of loss chain, but in our circumstance here they cannot/will not cover losses of live goods. This leaves us with no recourse for the Buyer or Seller when the Carrier is at fault (delayed shipment resulting in livestock loss). So we are left with contractually agreeing to this risk of loss at the time of sale. Unfortunately this is not always clearly explained and/or understood (sometimes by BOTH sides).

The terms of your sale govern the risk of loss for your purchase. "At what point does the Seller wash his hands" is dependent on the terms of that sale. In the real world the Seller should do everything they can up front to limit their liability, and then do everything they can afterwards to make the customer happy.

Most private sellers would not be in a position to simply lose the entire value of the coral(s) they have grown due to no fault of their own, and likewise most buyers aren't in a position to lose the purchase price through no fault of their own. A reasonable solution is to agree to share in the risk of loss.

Many commercial sellers don't want to risk creating a negative public perception regarding their customer service in the event of a lost/delayed shipment, so a reasonable solution is to always cover the risk of loss and adjust their prices up accordingly to cover the losses that do occur. Some commercial sellers may be operating on smaller margins/budget, or simply have high enough demand for their coral that they don't "have" to bear the risk of loss and can impose this risk of loss on the Buyer, who can then choose to purchase or not.

What I have noticed (having shipped many hundreds of boxes over the years) is that the greatest likelihood for a carrier delay is in the final stage of transit from the destination sort facility to the final address. The best way to overcome this, effectively for free, is to have the Buyer pick it up at the Fedex/UPS hub in their town. You could cut out a huge percentage of losses from a delivery delay just by doing that. Regardless, the terms should be clearly stated, and if there is a take home message from any of this it's that both Buyers and Sellers need to do a better job of discussing the potential for loss and coming to an agreement beforehand.
 
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Reefer1978

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The term/acronym FOB began with ocean shipping but is used commonly in the US now for all sorts of domestic shipment of goods. The concept does two things, it designates who is responsible for payment of shipping costs, and also denotes the transfer of the risk of loss. I brought up this point to demonstrate that the concept of risk of loss is dealt with already in many other industries and the core concept isn't really any different; its just that the understanding and acknowledgement in this industry seem to be lacking in some situations (on both Buyers and Sellers).

Usually insurance can be purchased through the common carrier which acts as an intermediary in the risk of loss chain, but in our circumstance here they cannot/will not cover losses of live goods. This leaves us with no recourse for the Buyer or Seller when the Carrier is at fault (delayed shipment resulting in livestock loss). So we are left with contractually agreeing to this risk of loss at the time of sale. Unfortunately this is not always clearly explained and/or understood (sometimes by BOTH sides).

The terms of your sale govern the risk of loss for your purchase. "At what point does the Seller wash his hands" is dependent on the terms of that sale. In the real world the Seller should do everything they can up front to limit their liability, and then do everything they can afterwards to make the customer happy.

Most private sellers would not be in a position to simply lose the entire value of the coral(s) they have grown due to no fault of their own, and likewise most buyers aren't in a position to lose the purchase price through no fault of their own. A reasonable solution is to agree to share in the risk of loss.

Many commercial sellers don't want to risk creating a negative public perception regarding their customer service in the event of a lost/delayed shipment, so a reasonable solution is to always cover the risk of loss and adjust their prices up accordingly to cover the losses that do occur. Some commercial sellers may be operating on smaller margins/budget, or simply have high enough demand for their coral that they don't "have" to bear the risk of loss and can impose this risk of loss on the Buyer, who can then choose to purchase or not.

What I have noticed (having shipped many hundreds of boxes over the years) is that the greatest likelihood for a carrier delay is in the final stage of transit from the destination sort facility to the final address. The best way to overcome this, effectively for free, is to have the Buyer pick it up at the Fedex/UPS hub in their town. You could cut out a huge percentage of losses from a delivery delay just by doing that. Regardless, the terms should be clearly stated, and if there is a take home message from any of this it's that both Buyers and Sellers need to do a better job of discussing the potential for loss and coming to an agreement beforehand.

I love this, thank you for the write-up. What should this shared responsibility be?

Most stores buy at wholesale prices. Lets say it's X. There's a markup - very often 100%, but lets say it's 50%. So far value is 1.5x. And then there's shipping, 1.5x + y = What the buys is spending, 1x is what the seller is spending so far. Shipping should be refunded by the carrier in case of a delay, so the buyer and seller should be splitting 1.5x evenly. buyer is out .75x, seller is out .25x, on an expensive torch, lets use $300 per head as an example, that's a total loss of $50 to the seller - seems like a no-brainier for all sellers to support this policy and provide much better service to all their customers. (Someone double check my math please). But, this is a single transaction, and as a customer trying to buy this coral, spending $150 to get nothing in return is still a lot of money.

Now lets assume this is a store shipping 10 packages a week, which is not a huge volume for a decent small business, and lets assume there's a 10% loss due to carrier mistakes. A seller is proffitting $100 per sale, or $900 from the 9 packages shipped. A weekly loss of $50 is a little over 5%, which is much easier for a vendor to swallow, then a complete loss for a consumer, and with great customer service, this consumer will return, spend more and easily make this difference up for a business. And if a vendor issues a store credit for a future purchase, now it's an even sum gain.

This is why I created this poll. I strongly believe vendors should support their customers for long-term success and not count every individual short-term profit.
 

tomxreef

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IMO a blanket statement like that shouldn’t protect a seller. It’s the sellers responsibility to ensure the contents arrive alive. That means, pack it in a manner that should survive (cold packs, heat packs, enough water, enough packing materials). They should also be responsible enough to check weather forecasts and not ship out on Thursdays due to the increased risk that the animals would be stuck somewhere during the weekend. I’ve had packages arrive 24 hrs late and still survive. I’ve also had vendors ship out fish in like a shot glass of water and surprise surprise they didn’t make it.
 

Dr. Reef

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It all depends in how the terms are set.
I am a vendor. I sell pre quarantined fish online.
My terms are very clear.
Alive arrival guarantee only.
When someone places an order with me I tell them. Due to covit, shipping is going to be to a hub and self pickup. If they agree so be it and if they dont i am not responsible for shipping company's mess up.
If the package does not reach the hub in time, sure I am responsible and replace at no cost to customer.
 
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Reefer1978

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It all depends in how the terms are set.
I am a vendor. I sell pre quarantined fish online.
My terms are very clear.
Alive arrival guarantee only.
When someone places an order with me I tell them. Due to covit, shipping is going to be to a hub and self pickup. If they agree so be it and if they dont i am not responsible for shipping company's mess up.
If the package does not reach the hub in time, sure I am responsible and replace at no cost to customer.

You make it clear and provide options. That's A+ in my book!!!
 

BrandonS

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Wouldn't say 100% but not just a best effort either. There are things they can't control. But if they are a good seller they should acknowledge that and be prepared to cover deaths to save face with customers. You can't help it if the fed ex guy forgets it on the bottom of the truck but wrapped in a paper towel and hope for the best doesn't cut it either.
 

Daniel@R2R

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This is definitely a tough question. I think for most sellers the current situation is what has made things iffy. Under normal circumstances, most sellers have a DOA guarantee and some even have a 14-day guarantee. I think shipping uncertainty right now is what makes it a difficult call.
 
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Reefer1978

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This is definitely a tough question. I think for most sellers the current situation is what has made things iffy. Under normal circumstances, most sellers have a DOA guarantee and some even have a 14-day guarantee. I think shipping uncertainty right now is what makes it a difficult call.

Agreed, these are very uncertain times. Many reputable vendors have that line in their terms, at the same time they don't explain in detail what it means, and do still cover the loss via credit for a future purchase (Which I think is reasonable and honorable). Then there are some new(ish) vendors showing up saying it's completely not on them, as every vendor has that line in terms. There are some hobbyists showing up even on R2R with those terms and that blows my mind. They aren't even loosing money other than shipping cost, they grow the coral.
 

PacificEastAquaculture

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Vendors can get insurance to cover shipping cost and livestock IF there is a delay. We have had it with UPS for years via UPS Capital.

That being said, with the excuse of the virus they are not covering any losses at this time. All carriers have suspended any delivery time guarantees. In reality, we have had very few packages delayed and continue to honor replacement or refund of any losses despite no insurance coverage at this time.

So, in normal non-virus times, since insurance is available to vendors to cover any losses (including due to weather delays) there is no reason not to honor live arrival guarantees due to carrier errors or delays.

Our policy from our site:
Our Guarantee Policy

We offer a 100% worry-free live arrival guarantee

Shipping

We ship with UPS which has been a very reliable company for us for many years but sometimes problems do occur so to provide added “peace of mind” for our customers we have decided to utilize the UPS Capital insurance program that protects your package from any mishandling or weather delays from the moment it leaves our facility until the arrival at your location.
 
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Jeff Myers

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I check for delays before buying. AS a vendor, they are suggesting you do the same. You Have that option. No one is forcing anyone to buy during these times. If there are delays, don't buy. I have had things arrive dead (not because of delays) and I have been given a refund. Delays=don't buy right now.
 

Corncracker

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Lots of vendors these days started adding "Not responsible for shipping delays" in their policies, to the point that even folks on the forum are doing it. Did anyone actually check with an attorney if it's legal? A sale is an exchange of money for goods, in our case specifically for a live animal. If the animal is delivered dead, seller didn't meet their contract obligation. So what does the community think? What do vendors think? (I hope you will participate).
But unfortunately a lot do not
 

JCOLE

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I don't agree with them not honoring the DOA for shipping. However, I know the situation at hand and it might be hard for some. However, It is really at the vendors loss if they dont honor shipping delays because I won't give them my business. I will go to the next vendor that does. It's unfortunate because I dont see those vendors staying in business long with that business model.
 

YourReef

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At Yout Reef we have still been honoring DOA's during the covid crisis even though we have the same scary verbiage in our DOA policy as every other vendor. We all really have that there for the rare scammer or truly unreasonable customer. Rarely happens as most of our customers always seem to very fair and understanding. We truly believe the customer should get what they paid for no matter who is at fault for the delay. That being said you do need to be home to receive your animals and we only guarantee the original order, we can not guarantee the DOA replacements if they don't make it.
With all that's currently going on in the world having orders shipped to your local UPS/Fed Ex Hub is always safest (we use UPS). Makes a big difference as you can pick up the order first thing in the morning and prevents the biggest problems we see with late orders and DOAs. Not to mention who wants their new corals driving around in a hot/cold truck for hours?
 
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Reefer1978

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Vendors can get insurance to cover shipping cost and livestock IF there is a delay. We have had it with UPS for years via UPS Capital.

That being said, with the excuse of the virus they are not covering any losses at this time. All carriers have suspended any delivery time guarantees. In reality, we have had very few packages delayed and continue to honor replacement or refund of any losses despite no insurance coverage at this time.

So, in normal non-virus times, since insurance is available to vendors to cover any losses (including due to weather delays) there is no reason not to honor live arrival guarantees due to carrier errors or delays.

Our policy from our site:
Our Guarantee Policy

We offer a 100% worry-free live arrival guarantee

Shipping

We ship with UPS which has been a very reliable company for us for many years but sometimes problems do occur so to provide added “peace of mind” for our customers we have decided to utilize the UPS Capital insurance program that protects your package from any mishandling or weather delays from the moment it leaves our facility until the arrival at your location.
At Yout Reef we have still been honoring DOA's during the covid crisis even though we have the same scary verbiage in our DOA policy as every other vendor. We all really have that there for the rare scammer or truly unreasonable customer. Rarely happens as most of our customers always seem to very fair and understanding. We truly believe the customer should get what they paid for no matter who is at fault for the delay. That being said you do need to be home to receive your animals and we only guarantee the original order, we can not guarantee the DOA replacements if they don't make it.
With all that's currently going on in the world having orders shipped to your local UPS/Fed Ex Hub is always safest (we use UPS). Makes a big difference as you can pick up the order first thing in the morning and prevents the biggest problems we see with late orders and DOAs. Not to mention who wants their new corals driving around in a hot/cold truck for hours?

On behalf of the hobby and the community thank you both for being outstanding!!!!
 
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