Are vendors responsible for live delivery of Coral????

[amoore311]

Below is all assuming the vendor has a clearly stated shipping policy regarding doa. In the event they do not, thats a failure of the hobbyists to not properly vet the source prior to spending their money. Do not do business with anyone without hashing out their policy FIRST. Now with that being said:

It is the vendors responsibility to insure the animal arrives alive to the best of their ability. This includes appropriate packaging, checking for severe weather prior to shipment, and not shipping on a Thursday.

If the above has been done, and UPS/Fedex Delay the Delivery..... that is 100% out of the hands of the shipper. The buyer takes this risk when they choose to purchase Live Animals that are shipped in boxes. A good vendor will typically offer a credit or replacement piece of the same item with the buyers next order. Anything above and beyond that should be considered....well above and beyond.

 

[Reefer1978]

Below is all assuming the vendor has a clearly stated shipping policy regarding doa. In the event they do not, thats a failure of the hobbyists to not properly vet the source prior to spending their money. Do not do business with anyone without hashing out their policy FIRST. Now with that being said:

It is the vendors responsibility to insure the animal arrives alive to the best of their ability. This includes appropriate packaging, checking for severe weather prior to shipment, and not shipping on a Thursday.

If the above has been done, and UPS/Fedex Delay the Delivery..... that is 100% out of the hands of the shipper. The buyer takes this risk when they choose to purchase Live Animals that are shipped in boxes. A good vendor will typically offer a credit or replacement piece of the same item with the buyers next order. Anything above and beyond that should be considered....well above and beyond.

So if I understand correctly, what you are saying is: Although the seller is either paying $0 (hobbyist growing coral) or paying .30c-.50c on a dollar as they buy wholesale, and can get a refund for shipping if its delayed, it's 100% on the buyer?

 

[amoore311]

So if I understand correctly, what you are saying is: Although the seller is either paying $0 (hobbyist growing coral) or paying .30c-.50c on a dollar as they buy wholesale, and can get a refund for shipping if its delayed, it's 100% on the buyer?

You aren't understanding correctly. I specifically pointed out, in the event of a DOA the buyer should be due a credit on their next order, or another frag of the same piece on their next order if they are available.

Nowhere would the above equate to being "100% on the buyer."

Repeatedly referencing assumed costs and assumed shipping policies w/ carriers does not in any way grant the buyer some magical rights in the event the shipping company screws up, that is above and beyond the sellers control. On top of that it is down right disingenuous to do so without also discussing the costs involved that DEMAND that 50% mark up.

First thing up front, there are no freight companies reimbursing for delays on expedited shipments, and it's been that way since March. To expect the vendor to eat that because of a carrier delay is ridiculous. I manage a 10 minion dollar sales territory and my customers spending 100k+ are most certainly not reimbursed when UPS delays their shipments, that would be patently ridiculous.

Secondly, 50%+ markup comes because of the cost of overhead, and the way shops in general are treated by overseas coral farms. Lets say you order 4 boxes from Jakarta. Those 4 boxes are sitting 10' from you at airport customs, an airport you have driven 60+ minutes to get too at 6am costing you $70+ in gas and tolls alone. You sit there and wait until 3PM, due to unforeseen customs delays. You get home, 2 boxes are DOA. If you are lucky you will get a credit for 50% of the box cost on your next order.

And again, what this boils down to....... if you the buyer are not happy with a stated shipping policy, don't use that seller.

If every seller has a similar policy, well I guess you are driving to LFS or otherwise buying locally. If the status quo shipping policies are that oppressive, it shouldn't be too much trouble to set up a small competitor with much more attractive shipping options.


I've been in this hobby for 15 years. This is, for every single one of my coral/livestock purchases online anyway, the way things have been done. It is more than fair, in my opinion.

 

[Reefer1978]

You aren't understanding correctly. I specifically pointed out, in the event of a DOA the buyer should be due a credit on their next order, or another frag of the same piece on their next order if they are available.

Nowhere would the above equate to being "100% on the buyer."

Repeatedly referencing assumed costs and assumed shipping policies w/ carriers does not in any way grant the buyer some magical rights in the event the shipping company screws up, that is above and beyond the sellers control. On top of that it is down right disingenuous to do so without also discussing the costs involved that DEMAND that 50% mark up.

First thing up front, there are no freight companies reimbursing for delays on expedited shipments, and it's been that way since March. To expect the vendor to eat that because of a carrier delay is ridiculous. I manage a 10 minion dollar sales territory and my customers spending 100k+ are most certainly not reimbursed when UPS delays their shipments, that would be patently ridiculous.

Secondly, 50%+ markup comes because of the cost of overhead, and the way shops in general are treated by overseas coral farms. Lets say you order 4 boxes from Jakarta. Those 4 boxes are sitting 10' from you at airport customs, an airport you have driven 60+ minutes to get too at 6am costing you $70+ in gas and tolls alone. You sit there and wait until 3PM, due to unforeseen customs delays. You get home, 2 boxes are DOA. If you are lucky you will get a credit for 50% of the box cost on your next order.

And again, what this boils down to....... if you the buyer are not happy with a stated shipping policy, don't use that seller.

If every seller has a similar policy, well I guess you are driving to LFS or otherwise buying locally. If the status quo shipping policies are that oppressive, it shouldn't be too much trouble to set up a small competitor with much more attractive shipping options.


I've been in this hobby for 15 years. This is, for every single one of my coral/livestock purchases online anyway, the way things have been done. It is more than fair, in my opinion.

Thanks for following up and explaining, that's exactly why I asked as I wanted it clarified. This is exactly the issue that's going on right now, many vendors are simply stating "Not responsible for carrier delays" without any explanation as to what it actually means, So I think communication and explanation in detail is very important.

 

[Reefer1978]

I also want to point out, numbers I mentioned are not real but made up. Please don't quote any markup - they are used for discussion only. I don't know what the real mark-up is, I don't know what vendors purchase their coral for, or what they sell them for. I am just assuming it's something along those lines for it to be worth it.

 

[mtl12580]

If the vendor ships out the order in a timely fashion, but the order is delayed in transit, it is the carrier's responsibility if the livestock arrives doa. That's where shipping insurance comes in. The carrier pays the shipper the insurance money, and the shipper refunds the customer.

 

[blstravler]

As a legal issue it is no different than FOB Origin shipping terms from a manufacturer/Seller in a different industry. Simply put, the terms of the sale are what governs the risk of loss. The Seller could simply say "you are purchasing FOB my home/business" and then set up shipping in accordance with your wishes; that would put the risk of loss on the buyer. Now, in the aquarium trade I haven't seen people phrase it like that with Incoterms/legalese, but that is effectively what is being done.

Not the same - you have insurance all the way through weather you buy Ex-Works, FCA, FOB or even DDP.

 

[SR Reefing]

Yeah, I can't agree with vendors don't cover shipping delays or acts of god. I buy and sell some coral here.

When I am the buyer, I really pray that Fedex doesn't screw up because it is really 100% on me if it delays for a day or 2. Therefore, when I sell coral I always cover 50% in the event of shipping delay for any reason. I think this works well for sellers/vendors as well.

First, it makes you look good. Shows that you are a responsible person/business.

Second, it reduces the chance of charge back. I mean sure buyer agreed to your terms and conditions, but they might still do a chargeback since they didn't get anything due to delay. (i am not saying buy should do that, or it is the right thing to do).

I mean like OP stated, it is a hobby, you want it to grow bigger and better. Therefore buyers should be better protected. You as seller/vendor should take more risk.

 

[YourReef]

If the vendor ships out the order in a timely fashion, but the order is delayed in transit, it is the carrier's responsibility if the livestock arrives doa. That's where shipping insurance comes in. The carrier pays the shipper the insurance money, and the shipper refunds the customer.

Sorry to say the Shippers no longer refund any money for any reason on Live Animals. Not even the cost of shipping is covered at the moment due to covid. Even before that it was so difficult to get a shipping refund that it was not worth the time to try.
Either way we still honor our guarantee.

 

[Butcher333]

Vendors can get insurance to cover shipping cost and livestock IF there is a delay. We have had it with UPS for years via UPS Capital.

That being said, with the excuse of the virus they are not covering any losses at this time. All carriers have suspended any delivery time guarantees. In reality, we have had very few packages delayed and continue to honor replacement or refund of any losses despite no insurance coverage at this time.

So, in normal non-virus times, since insurance is available to vendors to cover any losses (including due to weather delays) there is no reason not to honor live arrival guarantees due to carrier errors or delays.

Our policy from our site:
Our Guarantee Policy

We offer a 100% worry-free live arrival guarantee

Shipping

We ship with UPS which has been a very reliable company for us for many years but sometimes problems do occur so to provide added “peace of mind” for our customers we have decided to utilize the UPS Capital insurance program that protects your package from any mishandling or weather delays from the moment it leaves our facility until the arrival at your location.

Nice. I feel that this is the kind of policy an online business selling live products, should have. Anything else would be “not worth considering”.

 

[Reefer1978]

If the vendor ships out the order in a timely fashion, but the order is delayed in transit, it is the carrier's responsibility if the livestock arrives doa. That's where shipping insurance comes in. The carrier pays the shipper the insurance money, and the shipper refunds the customer.

Keep in mind, we don't have insurance. Does that change your answer?

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Already tackled this issue on another thread. The long and short of it is about 2/3 of the normal fleet of aircraft are sitting on the ground so, no passengers, no freight. Most of the airmail and deliver service is through passenger aircraft in the cargo hold. This is why delivery is spotty and prices 2 to 3 time the cost before Covid. The shipper has to adapt to current conditions and the reality of air freight. The shipper has no control after the livestock leaves their facility so they are limiting their liability accordingly. It is what it is!

 

[Reefer1978]

Already tackled this issue on another thread. The long and short of it is about 2/3 of the normal fleet of aircraft are sitting on the ground so, no passengers, no freight. Most of the airmail and deliver service is through passenger aircraft in the cargo hold. This is why delivery is spotty and prices 2 to 3 time the cost before Covid. The shipper has to adapt to current conditions and the reality of air freight. The shipper has no control after the livestock leaves their facility so they are limiting their liability accordingly. It is what it is!

FedEx has dedicated fleet of planes that don't carry passengers, so does UPS as far as I know. So I don't believe this applied.

 

[Reefer40b]

At Yout Reef we have still been honoring DOA's during the covid crisis even though we have the same scary verbiage in our DOA policy as every other vendor. We all really have that there for the rare scammer or truly unreasonable customer. Rarely happens as most of our customers always seem to very fair and understanding. We truly believe the customer should get what they paid for no matter who is at fault for the delay. That being said you do need to be home to receive your animals and we only guarantee the original order, we can not guarantee the DOA replacements if they don't make it.
With all that's currently going on in the world having orders shipped to your local UPS/Fed Ex Hub is always safest (we use UPS). Makes a big difference as you can pick up the order first thing in the morning and prevents the biggest problems we see with late orders and DOAs. Not to mention who wants their new corals driving around in a hot/cold truck for hours?

Well said, unfortunately this is true and is why many have some scary verbiage but if your not in the scammer category I think most vendors will have your back in the event that you have issues. I know we do and want every customer to have a good experience. Like stated also having your package held at a hub is just another step to getting your package safer and not sitting on a Truck for hours in various weather conditions, and having less chance for delay.

 

[Reefer1978]

Well said, unfortunately this is true and is why many have some scary verbiage but if your not in the scammer category I think most vendors will have your back in the event that you have issues. I know we do and want every customer to have a good experience. Like stated also having your package held at a hub is just another step to getting your package safer and not sitting on a Truck for hours in various weather conditions, and having less chance for delay.

Would be nice if vendors stated is as: "Not responsible for shipping delays unless. you pick-up at a hub" - at least it gives consumers an option and makes it clear to everyone.

 

[gray808]

I still think we, as consumers are in the wrong here. To me, it's like ordering sushi in the summer, it's riskier, raw fish + heat don't mix well. I still don't expect to get sick, and if I do get sick, believe me I expect a refund. Sushi gets delivered stinky, it's getting refunded. No questions asked. It's the cost of doing business.

Modern fish harvesting for sushi is all flash-frozen at point of catch. Summer, winter, will make no difference.

--Gray

 

[Reefer1978]

Modern fish harvesting for sushi is all flash-frozen at point of catch. Summer, winter, will make no difference.

--Gray

Not if your local store doesn't keep it cool afterwards....

 

[TheOldSalt]

Vendors are just going to have to learn how to pack better. The vendors who pack for a week long transit will quickly gain a reputation for excellence.

 

[fish farmer]

Vendors are just going to have to learn how to pack better. The vendors who pack for a week long transit will quickly gain a reputation for excellence.

This is something I always ponder since I receive corals through the mail. I also ship live fish eggs overnight in insulated boxes with plenty of ice, but still wouldn't want to be shipping during the summer.

As a buyer I don't buy corals during extreme weather conditions. I usually buy during mild non hurricane season weather. I usually buy at most three or four corals at a time, most of those would fit in a tiny insulated box. I don't feel a tiny insulated box with a heat/cold pack during extreme weather would keep the temp stable, but then again I don't ship corals so if vendors have success most of the time doing this then great.

I wonder how many vendors actually delay shipping an item if there are actually weather extremes. I see it mentioned on some websites, but never hear that it actually happens. I feel the customer may buy corals at whatever time is best for them and then when the cooked box of corals shows up and it has been 90 degrees for a week it is somehow not the buyers fault.

 

[gray808]

Not if your local store doesn't keep it cool afterwards....

Then you should re-think making sushi from there.

--Gray