aspartic acid and glutumic acid as a carbon source

[rosshamsandwich]

eventually in the form of fish poop, no?

 

[rosshamsandwich]

won't aspartic and glutamic acid get skimmed out by a protein skimmer?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

won't aspartic and glutamic acid get skimmed out by a protein skimmer?

I don't think they will be particularly prone to removal by skimming since hey do not really have a hydrophobic portion of the molecule, making them not likely to adsorb at an air/water interface.

Other amino acids, such as phenylalanine, will likely be a lot more prone to being skimmed out.

 

[marke]

Does seaweed have Phosphates?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does seaweed have Phosphates?

Yes, all living tissues do.

 

[Luke Schnabel]

@marke I found this tread while doing some research on amino acids for my tank. I would love to make this mixture as well for my tanks. Did you use L-Aspartic Acid or D-Aspartic Acid. I don't really know the difference.

@Randy Holmes-Farley do you know if this mix needs to be refrigerated? Or can I hook this up to my doser once I make the solution?

 

[Macdaddynick1]

@marke I found this tread while doing some research on amino acids for my tank. I would love to make this mixture as well for my tanks. Did you use L-Aspartic Acid or D-Aspartic Acid. I don't really know the difference.

@Randy Holmes-Farley do you know if this mix needs to be refrigerated? Or can I hook this up to my doser once I make the solution?

It starts growing bacteria within a week. IME

 

[Luke Schnabel]

It starts growing bacteria within a week. IME

Did you use L-Aspartic Acid or D-Aspartic Acid?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@marke I found this tread while doing some research on amino acids for my tank. I would love to make this mixture as well for my tanks. Did you use L-Aspartic Acid or D-Aspartic Acid. I don't really know the difference.

@Randy Holmes-Farley do you know if this mix needs to be refrigerated? Or can I hook this up to my doser once I make the solution?

There’s no reason to ever use D amino acids in this context unless you are wanted to use amino acids that are rare and only used by a few bacteria, ot maybe if you only want them as a source of N And not a useful component of proteins.

Amino acid solutions will grow bacteria unless preserved somehow.

 

[Dan_P]

I know I have read that people have dosed these as a carbon source. Whats your thoughts? An good articles? If its a carbon source why is it the primary ingredient in most amino acid supplements? Is it a coral food or a bacteria food? Maybe both? Maybe aminos are feeding bacteria which in turn feed corals. Not making a statement, just asking for others opinions and research. Thanks in advance for responding!

Interesting questions. Here are some observations.

I have been looking into what causes cyanobacteria growth and that has led me to trying different nitrogen sources. For Oscillatoria, one of the trouble makers in the reef aquarium, I could not get the darn thing to grow very well until I started feeding it glutamine (I also tried arginine). And because I am growing mixed cultures, predominantly Oscillatoria, the culture medium is accumulating ammonia.

I confirmed that aquarium water spiked with 1 mM or 146 ppm glutamine also accumulates ammonia. This could be explained by the glutamine being digested by bacteria and because of the low carbon to nitrogen ratio, excess ammonia is excreted. In other words glutamine is a carbon source but it will also dose the tank with ammonia. The amount of ammonia depends on the amount of amino acid dosed. I spiked aquarium water with glucose and glutamine. There was rapid oxygen uptake followed by a slower oxygen uptake. I interpret this as the glucose being consumed first then the glutamine. So, it might be possible to see how aquarium water deals with a mix of vinegar and an amino acid. Glutamic and aspartic acids have a higher carbon to nitrogen ratio, possibly liberating less ammonia upon digestion by bacteria.

The effect of dosing an aquarium with an amino acid would seem to depend on the microorganism population and microorganism variety in the tank. How much reaches the coral and how much ammonia is generated and reaches the coral is also to be considered. A Seneye might be the tool to study ammonia accumulation question, although a quick calculation would show whether much ammonia accumulation is even possible For a particular dose of amino acid.

With regards to storage, Randy points out that high concentration might be a solution for inhibiting bacteria growth during storage.

This was a bit of rambling, but hope it helps.

 

[marke]

@marke I found this tread while doing some research on amino acids for my tank. I would love to make this mixture as well for my tanks. Did you use L-Aspartic Acid or D-Aspartic Acid. I don't really know the difference.

@Randy Holmes-Farley do you know if this mix needs to be refrigerated? Or can I hook this up to my doser once I make the solution?

Luke
Old thread? Good questions. Use L-Aspartic as RF mentioned already. Problem to deal with is it is not soluble in water without manipulation in some way. (trade secret) Each way bringing its pros and cons. I think you (like ME) should add some glutamic acid to the blend if you try to mix them. Similarly hard to dissolve especially if you want to make a strong solution. As to the refrigeration question. If nothing else is added to this solution, fridge will help avoid the growth of microbials, bacteria,etc in the bottle. Happens fast, even in fridge. Most manufactures add a preservative to their liquid aminos to add shelf life and avoid fridge. Some of these additives are better than others. Some contain phosphates and some contain an alcohol or ethanol. ME uses vinegar as a safe preservative which also adds a little carbon, Helping the consumption of the added NO3 from the aminos. I do want to politely disagree with Dr RF on the value of aminos for growing sps corals. RF says its just another NO3 source and equates it to NO3 dosing. Yes aminos are a good source of no3 with lower levels of po4 than regular food feeding which is good for corals. The real difference I see is if we dose aminos we see a coral feeding response in 10 minutes. Why? We dont see this when we dose NO3. ME feels its the coral instantly feeding on the aminos before they are gone from the water column, possibly due to bacterial, and algae consumption. Mike Paletta feels corals grow faster with doser feeding aminos during the day allowing corals to feed more during daytime, and allowing particulate feeding at night as corals typically do. We feels 24/7 dosing works best. With appropriate no3 test. Also how come when we dose aminos we don't see an NO3 rise in our system as we would when we dose no3? Just saying amino dosing is different than nitrate dosing, and both have there place with ME.

 

[Luke Schnabel]

@marke thank you for your response. I will be getting my shipment of both and start toying with a solution I can then dose to my tank. I can even make a weekly batch no problem as well.
Thanks again.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Luke
Old thread? Good questions. Use L-Aspartic as RF mentioned already. Problem to deal with is it is not soluble in water without manipulation in some way. (trade secret) Each way bringing its pros and cons. I think you (like ME) should add some glutamic acid to the blend if you try to mix them. Similarly hard to dissolve especially if you want to make a strong solution. As to the refrigeration question. If nothing else is added to this solution, fridge will help avoid the growth of microbials, bacteria,etc in the bottle. Happens fast, even in fridge. Most manufactures add a preservative to their liquid aminos to add shelf life and avoid fridge. Some of these additives are better than others. Some contain phosphates and some contain an alcohol or ethanol. ME uses vinegar as a safe preservative which also adds a little carbon, Helping the consumption of the added NO3 from the aminos. I do want to politely disagree with Dr RF on the value of aminos for growing sps corals. RF says its just another NO3 source and equates it to NO3 dosing. Yes aminos are a good source of no3 with lower levels of po4 than regular food feeding which is good for corals. The real difference I see is if we dose aminos we see a coral feeding response in 10 minutes. Why? We dont see this when we dose NO3. ME feels its the coral instantly feeding on the aminos before they are gone from the water column, possibly due to bacterial, and algae consumption. Mike Paletta feels corals grow faster with doser feeding aminos during the day allowing corals to feed more during daytime, and allowing particulate feeding at night as corals typically do. We feels 24/7 dosing works best. With appropriate no3 test. Also how come when we dose aminos we don't see an NO3 rise in our system as we would when we dose no3? Just saying amino dosing is different than nitrate dosing, and both have there place with ME.

What feeding response are you getting from acropora and other sps?

 

[marke]

 

[ineption]

As far as i know some manufactures of Aminos some how extract aminos from the likes of Spirulina powder as that is one of the reachest algae thats loaded with goodies that corals love. I am no scientist, but my understanding is in order for the aminos to be available to coral a digestive enzime needs to break the spirulina down and byproduct is used as aminos. Question is what kinds of enzimes and how is it done exactly

 

[Dan_P]

As far as i know some manufactures of Aminos some how extract aminos from the likes of Spirulina powder as that is one of the reachest algae thats loaded with goodies that corals love. I am no scientist, but my understanding is in order for the aminos to be available to coral a digestive enzime needs to break the spirulina down and byproduct is used as aminos. Question is what kinds of enzimes and how is it done exactly

Trypsin and chymotrypsin would be examples of readily available enzymes that break down proteins to amino acids and small polypeptides.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I'm in over my head in this conversation but... I remember trying L-Aspartic Acid as part of a DIY amino supplement a few of years ago. I got the L-Aspartic Acid from the Supplement Store and mixed it, and a another supplement, in RODI water with a little Bicarb in it. I don't have any memory of it being hard to dissolve. Sorry, I don't remember the exact ratio, or the name of the second supplement. It did seem to help color and polyp extension in my corals, particularly the easier to keep Monti Caps and Digita, and Birdsnests that represented most of the SPS corals I had at the time. I used it for several months and saw some improvement in color & growth that I attributed to the Amino dosing. It was inexpensive and seemed to work but I stopped using it when carbon dosing became unnecessary. Now I use nature's own automatic fish poo amino dosers!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As far as i know some manufactures of Aminos some how extract aminos from the likes of Spirulina powder as that is one of the reachest algae thats loaded with goodies that corals love. I am no scientist, but my understanding is in order for the aminos to be available to coral a digestive enzime needs to break the spirulina down and byproduct is used as aminos. Question is what kinds of enzimes and how is it done exactly

There are lots of digestive enzymes that break down proteins.

Why do you think they use something like spirulina? Sounds messy and impure. That isn't how amino acids for human consumption are obtained.

from wikipedia:

Amino acid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

" The commercial production of amino acids usually relies on mutant bacteria that overproduce individual amino acids using glucose as a carbon source. Some amino acids are produced by enzymatic conversions of synthetic intermediates. "

 

[ineption]

There are lots of digestive enzymes that break down proteins.

Why do you think they use something like spirulina? Sounds messy and impure. That isn't how amino acids for human consumption are obtained.

from wikipedia:

Amino acid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

" The commercial production of amino acids usually relies on mutant bacteria that overproduce individual amino acids using glucose as a carbon source. Some amino acids are produced by enzymatic conversions of synthetic intermediates. "

Hi Randy,

Seachem the company behind Aquavitro fuel has this to say regarding there product.

fuel™ is a comprehensive carbohydrate, vitamin, amino acid, polyunsaturated fatty acid, and trace element supplement developed to address nutritional requirements commonly associated with corals. fuel™ contains ascorbic acid in a base of chlorella, which contains a rich assortment of amino acids and vitamins. The health benefits of chlorella are widely known and while spirulina, a similar algae, has been regularly used in the industry, aquavitro is the first to utilize the vastly superior chlorella. fuel™ is formulated to provide nutrients available from natural tropical reef waters.

According to them spirulina has been used widely in the industry, however they use chlorella.
After few Google searches it seems they some how release the contents of spirulina. The exact method is unknown to me, but I suspect through use of enzymes, there could be other methods too, but enzyme is one of the most sophisticated.
They possibly bump up the content for certain elements like Carbs ect. Maybe add extra Ascorbic acid and so on

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK. I personally would prefer a more purified product if my goal was to dose amino acids.

Other companies, like Brightwell, use purified amino acids, not broken up cells:

Ingredients
Purified water, proprietary complex of free-form amino acids, proprietary base.