At a loss, high nitrites and nitrates in established tank

[Aleph]

Hi guys I have a 20g tank that's been running for about 2 years, in these 2 years I always had very high nitrates (50-200+ ppm) and, I recently discovered, high nitrites (1-10 ppm). I tested for nitrates with several tests (Salifert, Tropic Marin, Aquaforest) and nitrites with Tropic Marin and Sera strips.
Also, I tend to have very low phosphate (no color showing up on Tropic Marin, 0.02 with ICP) and have an oversized skimmer (Bubble Magus A5).
My livestock is just 2 clowns and I feed them very little food.
Corals, well, SPS die within a couple weeks, LPS die of a very slow stn (like months long) and softies survive but don't grow much.
I don't have algae at all, but I have (always had) lots of cyano, tried to get rid of them with a chemiclean treatment but in a month they were back as if nothing happened.
I also did an ICP test and everything was within range.
During these 2 years I tried everything to bring nitrates down: DSB, bio media in the sump (Matrix and Siporax), bacteria dosing (Prodibio, MB7 and Stability), carbon dosing with vinegar, vodka and nopox, even with phophate dosing (thinking I was phosphate limited), almost no feeding and lots of feeding, lots of water changes and finally a Donovan's nitrate destroyer.
The only thing that managed to bring the nitrates down were water changes, but I had to do something like 20% per week and within the week they went back up fast, so it's not a viable option.
Right now I have been trying Donovan's nitrate destroyer but it's been running for 2 months and it's not bringing the nitrates down and, if anything, it seems to bring nitrites up for some reason!

So, I'm about to tear everything down because I'm out of options, is there anything else I can do to try and save this tank?
I have the suspect that something is inhibiting denitrifying bacterial growth, maybe some bacterial imbalance, and I can't bring the necessary balance to the system, is there a way to "reset" everything to restore a proper bacterial balance?

Thank you for your help!

 

[brandon429]

Ignore the nitrites theyre neutral


only nitrate matters, and that’s a fine range. It is directly fair to say updated cycling science just saved a reef tank, and old cycling science was going to kill it by takedown/ noncompliance


beyond this risk, bottle bac sellers who make the rules that nitrite is bad are over selling bottle bac

ignore nitrite

 

[brandon429]

chemists always knew it was neutral in cycling and in reefing in general

we started testing out the presence of nitrite in new cycles by the thousands, you'd be surprised at the patterns we have on file in fact its many many many hours read for proofs, and not one cycle or invert or filter or coral or fish has ever been harmed by it

additionally, nothing says your test kit is right, its merely indicating something. either way, take no remedial action whatsoever.

a parameter we were once told to care about no longer applies in reefing. Nitrite isn’t confounding the test kit, it’s just that test kits range on reporting accuracy. I promise your tank w remain fine, post a pic of it pls

 

[BostonReefer300]

You are going to see measurable nitrite levels if your nitrate levels are that high, but that's not a real concern. Having nitrates that high is very puzzling based on the totality of what you wrote. Without anything else to go on, I'm wondering if it could be related to the food you're using

 

[Jekyl]

Throw the nitrite test away.

 

[Jekyl]

You are going to see measurable nitrite levels if your nitrate levels are that high, but that's not a real concern. Having nitrates that high is very puzzling based on the totality of what you wrote. Without anything else to go on, I'm wondering if it could be related to the food you're using

Agree with this. I don't even have a sump/chaeto or any other the other things you've tried. My nitrate hovers around 10. Skimmer, HoB filter and NoPox are my only exports. I barely ever change my water either. Need to find your source.

 

[brandon429]

plus its two years out. nitrites are controlled by then, any cycling chart agrees

and if they werent, and he dosed more nitrite, still neutral. what we do saves money its not just pure geeking out exclusively. thats fun and awesome. if you arent using a hanna digital nitrate why even care/measure them anyway

Paul B runs at 160 nitrate at times. your levels are fine, fine as they are.

 

[Azedenkae]

Hi guys I have a 20g tank that's been running for about 2 years, in these 2 years I always had very high nitrates (50-200+ ppm) and, I recently discovered, high nitrites (1-10 ppm). I tested for nitrates with several tests (Salifert, Tropic Marin, Aquaforest) and nitrites with Tropic Marin and Sera strips.
Also, I tend to have very low phosphate (no color showing up on Tropic Marin, 0.02 with ICP) and have an oversized skimmer (Bubble Magus A5).
My livestock is just 2 clowns and I feed them very little food.
Corals, well, SPS die within a couple weeks, LPS die of a very slow stn (like months long) and softies survive but don't grow much.
I don't have algae at all, but I have (always had) lots of cyano, tried to get rid of them with a chemiclean treatment but in a month they were back as if nothing happened.
I also did an ICP test and everything was within range.
During these 2 years I tried everything to bring nitrates down: DSB, bio media in the sump (Matrix and Siporax), bacteria dosing (Prodibio, MB7 and Stability), carbon dosing with vinegar, vodka and nopox, even with phophate dosing (thinking I was phosphate limited), almost no feeding and lots of feeding, lots of water changes and finally a Donovan's nitrate destroyer.
The only thing that managed to bring the nitrates down were water changes, but I had to do something like 20% per week and within the week they went back up fast, so it's not a viable option.
Right now I have been trying Donovan's nitrate destroyer but it's been running for 2 months and it's not bringing the nitrates down and, if anything, it seems to bring nitrites up for some reason!

So, I'm about to tear everything down because I'm out of options, is there anything else I can do to try and save this tank?
I have the suspect that something is inhibiting denitrifying bacterial growth, maybe some bacterial imbalance, and I can't bring the necessary balance to the system, is there a way to "reset" everything to restore a proper bacterial balance?

Thank you for your help!

So, turns out this is one of those instances where you probably do have nitrite in your tank. Normally I'd kinda brush it off, but your nitrate readings make me think your nitrite reading is real.

50 to 200+ppm is not only really high, but also the range is massive.

So the likely explanation for this is that nitrate test kits actually convert a small fraction to nitrite, then measure that as a proxy. If you have nitrite in your tank, then that will cause nitrate to read falsely high. It may also be why you see huge swings in nitrate, whereby a % water change corresponds to a higher % decrease in nitrates.

However, it would be very odd to read any amount of nitrite in an established tank, especially given a.) it's been two years, and b.) you don't feed much. Even if you feed A LOT (like I do), it should not result in nitrites being present, the nitrifiers should be very, very efficient. Just to clarify, I add 40 to 80 small (or very small, not too sure) New Life Spectrum pellets a day to my tank, because my clowns suck at grabbing food. And nope, no nitrite.

So imo, 1. ignore your nitrate for now, especially given your nitrite measurement, and 2. let's solve your nitrite issue.

I think it's important first to see if your nitrite readings are even true. Can you take a nitrite reading of the water you'd use to mix saltwater and see what it is? I understand you did the tests with multiple test kits, but just want to be sure.

Also, how much biomedia do you have? Specifically live rock, but also everything else.

Just to clarify, the nitrite readings you have should have zero effects on any of your live stock. But is still good to figure out where it is coming from, if real.

 

[Dan_P]

Hi guys I have a 20g tank that's been running for about 2 years, in these 2 years I always had very high nitrates (50-200+ ppm) and, I recently discovered, high nitrites (1-10 ppm). I tested for nitrates with several tests (Salifert, Tropic Marin, Aquaforest) and nitrites with Tropic Marin and Sera strips.
Also, I tend to have very low phosphate (no color showing up on Tropic Marin, 0.02 with ICP) and have an oversized skimmer (Bubble Magus A5).
My livestock is just 2 clowns and I feed them very little food.
Corals, well, SPS die within a couple weeks, LPS die of a very slow stn (like months long) and softies survive but don't grow much.
I don't have algae at all, but I have (always had) lots of cyano, tried to get rid of them with a chemiclean treatment but in a month they were back as if nothing happened.
I also did an ICP test and everything was within range.
During these 2 years I tried everything to bring nitrates down: DSB, bio media in the sump (Matrix and Siporax), bacteria dosing (Prodibio, MB7 and Stability), carbon dosing with vinegar, vodka and nopox, even with phophate dosing (thinking I was phosphate limited), almost no feeding and lots of feeding, lots of water changes and finally a Donovan's nitrate destroyer.
The only thing that managed to bring the nitrates down were water changes, but I had to do something like 20% per week and within the week they went back up fast, so it's not a viable option.
Right now I have been trying Donovan's nitrate destroyer but it's been running for 2 months and it's not bringing the nitrates down and, if anything, it seems to bring nitrites up for some reason!

So, I'm about to tear everything down because I'm out of options, is there anything else I can do to try and save this tank?
I have the suspect that something is inhibiting denitrifying bacterial growth, maybe some bacterial imbalance, and I can't bring the necessary balance to the system, is there a way to "reset" everything to restore a proper bacterial balance?

Thank you for your help!

With nitrites that high, your nitrate test is useless. Most of the nitrate “signal” is from the nitrites. You may not have high nitrites.

Establishing a population of nitrite oxidizing bacteria is slow but it does not require two years. While nitrite might not be harmful to fish, it is unusual for it to be this high.

You tried many things in the last two years. If you tried them one right after another, you might not have given anyone of them enough time to work. That said, nitrite oxidizing bacteria should have moved regardless of what you did.

I am thinking we are missing important information about your system, but what? This is so weird it’s like you are making this up .

I will ponder this tonight.

 

[Nano sapiens]

The cyano situation indicates high levels of organics and I'll bet you see it on the sand bed, mostly (assuming that you still have one). Have you ever cleaned your sand bed, or have you just let it be?

In every case where I've had cyano mats and high nitrates (last case was 20 years ago with my old 55g and 5 years of detritus buildup causing serious cyano mats), consistent gravel vacuuming did the trick by reducing the local organic load as well as removing the cyano directly (which is a form of exporting system sequestered nutrients). Key is to do a smallish area with ~10% water change every week or two (divide the bed area into 6 sections and vacuum one section at a time to avoid tank trauma).

Good luck!

 

[brandon429]

Aleph

let us see the tank pic. In your post history, for six months you’ve been at 100% concern level over nitrate. You need to cease testing for nitrogen species here, clearly it’s causing panic and stalling you from moving forward, nobody tussles over nitrate this bad.
post a tank pic, cease testing for six months and clean up your tank physically vs endless nitrate detailing using weak kits.


blanking test kits on clean water is useless in reefing. There’s no nitrification to grossly misinterpret there


you aren’t using digital test kits, when will the self torture we are taught by non digital test kits be enough? They make digital nitrate testers for this reason


you had rtn, so do lots of sps folks. What you do is this: focus on lps a while, lack of sps ability doesn’t mean you can’t reef. You could be light burning sps, or withholding feed out of nitrate fear, non digital testing is wrecking your reef it’s not the actual reef. If your tank was in my home, no testing for any param would occur and it would be cyano free, and it would grow sps, because we wouldn’t reef this way.

 

[Aleph]

Thank you all for your help! I will try to reply to everything...

@brandon429 here is a pic of the tank a couple months ago:

I would gladly ignore nitrite and nitrate values if the tank did well but the issue is that corals are not fine at all, since the picture I've lost almost half the corals you see here, and the remaining survivors are not doing fine.

@BostonReefer300 about the food, something I forgot to add is I also tried different brands of pellets/flakes and it did not make any change (Hikari, Haquoss, Ocean Nutrition and others)

@Jekyl I agree, that's exactly my problem, I can't find the source at all!

@Azedenkae the 50 to 200+ reference was misleading, that was the entire range I observed during these 2 years but in the last months it has been stable at 200+ (over the measurable range of all test kits, even with a 1:2 dilution)
I've also tested the RODI water I use for changes (I use a 5 stages unit) and it was at zero both in nitrates and nitrites.
I don't remember the weight of live rocks I have in the display but you can see the volume in the picture above. In my sump I have Siporax and Pond Matrix, about 1l of each, and about 2.5l of Siporax, Pond Matrix and nameless spheres from Amazon in the Donovan's nitrate destroyer.

@Dan_P I agree about the possibility that some of the things I tried may have been too rushed to conclude their ineffectiveness but most of the things I did, I did for like months, especially carbon dosing. Is there something in particular that you think could have worked if given more time? Also, unfortunately, I am not making this up and I also think we are missing important information, I just can't think what it could be.

@Nano sapiens I forgot to add that I don't have sand, I had a DSB when I first set up the tank but it din't work so I removed all the sand and added more dry rock after about 6 months from the first set up. Could the rocks have had organics stored inside that they are still releasing into the tank? At some point I was thinking of some heavy metal release but the ICP showed nothing above the range.

 

[Aleph]

@brandon429 I just read your last answer, I would gladly stop worrying about testing of any kind if at least lps stopped dying in the tank, I could care less about sps since I wanted this tank to be lps dominant but every lps I put in died so...
How would you start from here, not giving any attention to the testing? You mentioned cleaning, I do have some debris around but the tank is relatively clean, apart from the cyano, how would you get rid of them?

 

[brandon429]

that tank looks great! soft corals no problem obviously and the surface area and bacteria and coralline are nice nice nice


you need to lower light intensity don’t over drive, that’s a low organic system/ no sandbed to store cushioning wastes and sinks, make use of that clean system by spot feeding corals and do more export water changes, vs chemistry detailing. Focus on clean protein in, bulk water out methods, macro level care vs chemistry

more blues less whites, white LEDs can easily easily burn sps sticks and bleach out lps.

nitrite and trate have nothing to do with your issues that light is way strong for that level of cleanliness. I expected to see more algae than that were your params raised/ too high



did your icp tests have any bad standouts?


if you had bad params that toadstool wouldn’t be open/ colt would be wilted.


the tank just looks great as it stands. I’d be adding a big brain coral and then just directly feeding it when polyps are out and it will eat and grow fine, right now is 427 am in texas and my own pico bowl brain coral is full feeders mode, time to go dump in some rods feed, if I put some in at 4 pm none get into the coral it just swirls around the system. If I feed right now every polyp takes in meat.

 

[Cell]

You missed that pic was from several months ago @brandon429, not recent pic.

 

[Deep]

your high nitrates issue may be because of the zero phosphates issue. The ratio/proportion is off.

 

[Aleph]

@brandon429 yes when I took the picture the softies were doing fairly well, as @Cell pointed out the pic was taken a few months ago, since then things have gotten way worse, the two toadstools and the Kenya tree have wilted indeed, the only corals that survive fairly well are the mushrooms. My fear is that the process of nutrients (nitrates but probably not only) accumulation is becoming worse as time goes by, if situation was stable I would probably have resigned to growing just softies but unfortunately even them are getting worse.

@Deep that's highly likely, the issue is that I didn't find a way to balance things out. If I lower nitrates through water changes they go back up in no time, if I raise phosphate through dosing I get huge cyano blooms, even when I try to outcompete the cyano with dosing bacteria or with blackouts/chemiclean.

 

[Cell]

Posting a recent pic would be more helpful.

 

[Aleph]

@Cell I will do that when I get back home, I live in Italy so it was early morning when I replied and the only picture I had at hand was that one

 

[Aqua Man]

I've also tested the RODI water I use for changes (I use a 5 stages unit) and it was at zero both in nitrates and nitrites.

Test your salt water that you use for water changes.