ATI results back, sources of vanadium?

[Scrubber_steve]

Mix up some new salt water. Put a new ceramic tile in a bucket with the water and close the lid. Let it sit a few weeks then send off a sample. If it has the same results as your tank you'll know.

For my own enjoyment ..... I did an ionic balance analysis based on your test result from the OP - Salinität 31.35ppt
Here is the result if your interested

 

[rkpetersen]

One last followup to my 'experiment' of running black volcanic sand despite initial significantly elevated vanadium and nickel levels.

On the most recent ATI/Triton tests of 1/10/19, nickel and vanadium have further dropped and are no longer elevated, now reading 2.1/0 ppb and 2.6/0 ppb, respectively.

So, it appears that the leaching of these metals from the black sand has ceased? Or at least dropped to a very low level such that water changes control it completely. This is just under 11 months after tank startup, and I do 10% water change weekly.

It's hard to see why this would be the case. I would guess that the sand still has lots of both metals within it. Maybe metal ions can't migrate from deeper in the rock so only surfaces leach. Perhaps the individual grains get coated with a biofilm that prevents further leaching. I do siphon the sand now and then to remove detritus, so there is some turnover. I probably won't get a definitive answer but I'm happy with the result.

I will also say that overall corals and nems in this tank are doing better than ever now, and that there were a few unexplained deaths earlier. I can't say for certain though whether the excess heavy metal levels were responsible.

 

[Brew12]

One last followup to my 'experiment' of running black volcanic sand despite initial significantly elevated vanadium and nickel levels.

On the most recent ATI/Triton tests of 1/10/19, nickel and vanadium have further dropped and are no longer elevated, now reading 2.1/0 ppb and 2.6/0 ppb, respectively.

So, it appears that the leaching of these metals from the black sand has ceased? Or at least dropped to a very low level such that water changes control it completely. This is just under 11 months after tank startup, and I do 10% water change weekly.

It's hard to see why this would be the case. I would guess that the sand still has lots of both metals within it. Maybe metal ions can't migrate from deeper in the rock so only surfaces leach. Perhaps the individual grains get coated with a biofilm that prevents further leaching. I do siphon the sand now and then to remove detritus, so there is some turnover. I probably won't get a definitive answer but I'm happy with the result.

I will also say that overall corals and nems in this tank are doing better than ever now, and that there were a few unexplained deaths earlier. I can't say for certain though whether the excess heavy metal levels were responsible.

When we were looking at the sand under an electron microscope we found most of the sand was clean of vanadium. What we could find were tiny bits trapped in groves of the sand. If I had to guess almost all the vanadium leached out into the water and was removed by water changes, skimming, and being absorbed by algae. Especially if you run a fuge where you harvest macro algae.

 

[rkpetersen]

When we were looking at the sand under an electron microscope we found most of the sand was clean of vanadium. What we could find were tiny bits trapped in groves of the sand. If I had to guess almost all the vanadium leached out into the water and was removed by water changes, skimming, and being absorbed by algae. Especially if you run a fuge where you harvest macro algae.

That fits with what I've seen. I do run a regularly harvested chaeto fuge and that likely has played a role in reducing toxic metal levels.

 

[Reefcreators]

Mix up some new salt water. Put a new ceramic tile in a bucket with the water and close the lid. Let it sit a few weeks then send off a sample. If it has the same results as your tank you'll know.

We do not use vanadium in our clay. This is an element used in glazes of yellow colors which we don’t use either.

Your test will be flawed as ceramic bisque is pourus and since your pulling everything from your tank and placing it in your nano will just transfer all those contaminants as they will be released in the water. You would have to place a new ceramic to get an accurate finding.

We have not changed our clay formula since 2014. I have 100% confidence that these items are not originating from our products. We supply several large vendors from here on the forums that are running systems with 3-5k frags mounted on our plugs and there has never been an issue over the years.

If you have any questions I’ll be more then happy to answer them if I can.

Ryan

 

[SashimiTurtle]

We do not use vanadium in our clay. This is an element used in glazes of yellow colors which we don’t use either.

Your test will be flawed as ceramic bisque is pourus and since your pulling everything from your tank and placing it in your nano will just transfer all those contaminants as they will be released in the water. You would have to place a new ceramic to get an accurate finding.

We have not changed our clay formula since 2014. I have 100% confidence that these items are not originating from our products. We supply several large vendors from here on the forums that are running systems with 3-5k frags mounted on our plugs and there has never been an issue over the years.

If you have any questions I’ll be more then happy to answer them if I can.

Ryan

There is no way my test would be flawed, unless your ceramic was. I personally have not used, or heard of, your products before so I have no bias. I'm also not opposed to bio media, but wary as the age fine that do leach certain elements that may or may not be an issue. If you use new salt water and new ceramic media, allow it to leach whatever is going to leach, if it leaches at all, then send a sample... like I mentioned and you quoted... I see no previous contamination having any effect.

My quote...

Mix up some new salt water. Put a new ceramic tile in a bucket with the water and close the lid. Let it sit a few weeks then send off a sample. If it has the same results as your tank you'll know.

 

[Reefcreators]

Robin that wasn’t meant to quote your quote in chewdoggie’s post only his post. What you said to do would be the correct way which is exactly what I explained and why. Sorry for the confusion.

I was thinking the same thing. I'm going to pull all the ReefCreator stuff out and put in my nano. I'll test in a few weeks after it has had time to work its magic. In the meantime, I have to make the best guess and try to save the corals...so hoping its the ceramics.

Thank you.

 

[Scdell]

Interesting as I too use black sand. And my Triton test showed the same high elements.
I can and do grow sps. My problem is introducing the corals to the tank. Some acclimate and some don't. I've lost about half the acros I've put in. Could not figure out why. The acros that do acclimate are doing good. Some better than the others. I can't recall but I think I used the Hawaiian sand. You also showshow elevated levels of molybdenum. Same here. Triton said it would cause algae outbreaks. I have noticed that heavy carbon use and wet skimming improves the overall health of my tank. And often water changes. I'm convinced. I'm going to get rid of as much black sand as I can.

 

[spiraling]

i had the Hawaiian black sand and have been getting consistently high readings for Nickel and Vanadium (about 15 and 450 respectively). I removed most of the sand and did a bunch of water changes. Nickel is now 5 (which would be the expected result with the water changes) and Vanadium is 20. I have no explanation why the vanadium fell so much. But Its pretty conclusive that the Hawaiian black sand (carib sea) was the source.

 

[Scdell]

And I can't get rid of all my black sand. But I can get rid of a lot. I'm not tearing my reef apart to do it. I have a mix of black and arogonite.

 

[Turtlesteve]

No black grains are aragonite.

Back in undergraduate geology, we had weekly quizzes to identify hand samples of rocks and minerals. There was always one "nearly impossible" sample to ID...once it was a marine aragonitic limestone (biomicrite) that was jet black. So they do exist, but I've never seen one outside of that class.

With regards to the discussion at hand, these black sands are generally basalt or similar rock types (these are termed mafic or ultra-mafic rocks) and they're rich in all the transition metals (Cr, Fe, Ni, V, Co, etc.) V shows up because it's more easily leached.

White or off-white ceramics are probably less risk as the mineral sources that comprise them are commonly low in these types of contaminants (but rich in Al).

Steve

 

[rkpetersen]

Back in undergraduate geology, we had weekly quizzes to identify hand samples of rocks and minerals. There was always one "nearly impossible" sample to ID...once it was a marine aragonitic limestone (biomicrite) that was jet black. So they do exist, but I've never seen one outside of that class.

With regards to the discussion at hand, these black sands are generally basalt or similar rock types (these are termed mafic or ultra-mafic rocks) and they're rich in all the transition metals (Cr, Fe, Ni, V, Co, etc.) V shows up because it's more easily leached.

White or off-white ceramics are probably less risk as the mineral sources that comprise them are commonly low in these types of contaminants (but rich in Al).

Steve

This is really superb info! (Not in the least because it confirms our observations and my previous understanding.)

Also, welcome to R2R!

 

[Chewdoggie]

We do not use vanadium in our clay. This is an element used in glazes of yellow colors which we don’t use either.

Your test will be flawed as ceramic bisque is pourus and since your pulling everything from your tank and placing it in your nano will just transfer all those contaminants as they will be released in the water. You would have to place a new ceramic to get an accurate finding.

We have not changed our clay formula since 2014. I have 100% confidence that these items are not originating from our products. We supply several large vendors from here on the forums that are running systems with 3-5k frags mounted on our plugs and there has never been an issue over the years.

If you have any questions I’ll be more then happy to answer them if I can.

Ryan

Ryan's reply was intended for me I believe. I used Reefcreator products (stations & donuts) for my frags when I setup my 75 gl system again. I had taken it down when I had surgery and spent my recovery time upgrading the filtration. Everything in the tank was brand new except for the rock. The rock was in another tank with my corals during my recovery period. The rock is over 20 years old.

The vanadium issue is undetermined at this point. I have spent a ton of money on ICP tests trying to isolate whether it was my RODI (no), the saltwater (not the batch I sent in) and I have not conducted a "test" of the ceramic products yet. I still have some brand new ones that I never used and maybe one day I will do that. To do a test on it I would have to retest my RODI and saltwater again, use a sterile tank and then send in another ICP test once the brand new ceramics have been exposed for a given time. That's $100 that at this point I am unwilling to spend.

I pulled half of the ceramics out immediately, but the other half will require time to try to save the zoas that are growing on some them. Time I don't have right now.

I have removed and inspected every mechanical part of the tank. There are only three magnet products - Apex ATK and two Gyre XF-230s. All brand new at the time of the first ICP test - now almost 10 months old.

I don't know what else it could be. And truthfully, maybe it was something in the brand new bagged CaribSea Live Oolite or initial salt mix. I don't know anything about vanadium so have no idea if it could be airborne. So, I may never know. I did lose corals that absolutely were doing fine/thriving in the very basic and poorly maintained holding tank they were in at the LFS.

My brother is a chemist so maybe I will just farm this little project out to him.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Back in undergraduate geology, we had weekly quizzes to identify hand samples of rocks and minerals. There was always one "nearly impossible" sample to ID...once it was a marine aragonitic limestone (biomicrite) that was jet black. So they do exist, but I've never seen one outside of that class.

Then it is heavily contaminated with other ions, and I would not want to use it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We do not use vanadium in our clay. This is an element used in glazes of yellow colors which we don’t use either.

Your test will be flawed as ceramic bisque is pourus and since your pulling everything from your tank and placing it in your nano will just transfer all those contaminants as they will be released in the water. You would have to place a new ceramic to get an accurate finding.

We have not changed our clay formula since 2014. I have 100% confidence that these items are not originating from our products. We supply several large vendors from here on the forums that are running systems with 3-5k frags mounted on our plugs and there has never been an issue over the years.

If you have any questions I’ll be more then happy to answer them if I can.

Ryan

What do you use that you know it does not contain vanadium? Do you have detailed chemical analyses of what you do add?

 

[Scdell]

I removed all the black sand I could from my tank. Mostly in the front. Sent another ICP test out. Vanadium went down from 335 ug/l to 199. Nickel went down from 15 to 7.5. I'm convinced!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I removed all the black sand I could from my tank. Mostly in the front. Sent another ICP test out. Vanadium went down from 335 ug/l to 199. Nickel went down from 15 to 7.5. I'm convinced!

Thanks for the update!

 

[Jon Warner]

Black sand has been an anecdotal "thumbs down" for many years.

 

[Raptor72]

I know this is an older thread but I’ve been trying to find answers as to why all my inverts and any additional fish I add to my RS170 have been dying. I sent off for an ICP test and my Vanadium levels came back at 9,267!!! That’s on an optimal range of 2-10. I’ll be removing all my black sand tomorrow. I know that it is metallic as it will cling to my glass cleaner. This is what I had put in when I set it up, 9 months ago.

 

[SashimiTurtle]

I know this is an older thread but I’ve been trying to find answers as to why all my inverts and any additional fish I add to my RS170 have been dying. I sent off for an ICP test and my Vanadium levels came back at 9,267!!! That’s on an optimal range of 2-10. I’ll be removing all my black sand tomorrow. I know that it is metallic as it will cling to my glass cleaner. This is what I had put in when I set it up, 9 months ago.

I'd also do a pretty substantial water change and use a media designed to absorb metals from the water. Polyfilters are pretty good for that but I think there are a few others as well.