Autopsy

[chewy tabacca]

Hey guys, I have 2 other posts open but not getting the attention. Synopsis is the fish got sick, within 24 hours in copper he died. Around hour 15 I noticed a bump on his side. After death I cut him open where the bump was and the only thing that came out was water, however on the inside where what I presumed should be white was speckled with black. I originally thought it was ich people online said velvet. But I am now thinking it could be something else, all 20 other fish in my tank are fine.

Ideas?
Pic1 hour 1
Pic2bump
Pic3 speaks for itself

 

[ihavecrabs]

#reefsquad no clue here..

Only thing suspicious is being in copper for 24 hours before death but that isn't likely related to the bump.

Were you slowly raising the copper to therapeutic levels or were the fish put directly into full therapeutic levels?

 

[chewy tabacca]

#reefsquad no clue here..

Only thing suspicious is being in copper for 24 hours before death but that isn't likely related to the bump.

Were you slowly raising the copper to therapeutic levels or were the fish put directly into full therapeutic levels?

It was raised over about 10 hours, first time experiencing a copper dip/hospital tank so wasn't really sure what I was doing. Level it was left at was 0.3-0.4 ppm

 

[ihavecrabs]

Which copper product and test kit are you using?

It was raised over about 10 hours, first time experiencing a copper dip/hospital tank so wasn't really sure what I was doing. Level it was left at was 0.3-0.4 ppm

 

[chewy tabacca]

Which copper product and test kit are you using?

Cupramine, ATI test

 

[chewy tabacca]

Cupramine, ATI test

Cupramine by seachem

 

[mcarroll]

Use of Copper in Marine Aquaculture and Aquarium Systems

Copper Toxicity to Target Organisms
At recommended Cu2+ concentrations of 0.15–0.20 mg/L, free copper is toxic to a number of organisms that are pathogens of fish, including the marine parasites Cryptocaryon irritans and Amyloodinium ocellatum.

and...

Copper Toxicity to Non-Targeted Organisms
Animal Considerations
Some species of fish are highly sensitive to copper and will die even at concentrations below therapeutic levels (i.e., less than 0.15 mg/L free copper). Other considerations that will affect survival include acclimation period (exposing fish to slowly increasing concentrations of free copper over the course of several days until the treatment target concentration is reached), as well as age or life stage of the fish. In one study, larvae acclimated to copper exposure more quickly than juvenile and adult fish and had better survival (Sellin et al. 2005). In some fish species, younger fish are more resistant to copper toxicity than older fish; in others, the reverse is true (Howarth and Sprague 1978; Pickering and Lazorchak 1995; Furata et al. 2008). Copper will damage a number of organs and systems, including the gills, liver, kidney, immune system, and nervous system (Cardeilhac and Whitaker 1988). Gills appear to be the most affected organ during acute toxicity, and will become blunt and thickened and lose ability to regulate body fluid ion concentrations. Copper also suppresses immune system function, and can affect the lateral line of fish. Prolonged copper exposure also may result in reduced growth (Wong et al. 1999). During toxicity, in addition to general signs of distress (e.g., increased respiration), fish may display darkening and behavioral abnormalities: lethargy, incoordination, problems with posture and balance, and, eventually, death (Cardeilhac and Whitaker 1988).

 

[mcarroll]

Seems like you may have been about double-intensity (plus factor in the error rate of your test kit....or +10% if you were estimating on tank volume) on the copper concentration.

Plus the symptoms of darkening and behavioral abnormalities match.

Don'y treat fish that don't appear to be sick from something.

At home there's no good justification for pre-treating all fish since you can get as few fish at a time as you need in order to make it work best.

Farms, aquariums and stores don't have the same options as we do since they probably get hundreds or thousands of fish at a time.

Individual attention isn't a possibility in that context.

For us, individual attention is our specialty.

More to come....

 

[mcarroll]

From Seachem:

Although most fish tolerate Cupramine™ to 0.8 mg/L, it is not advisable to exceed 0.6 mg/L copper.

You didn't break any records according to them (and the lit doesn't account for aminated copper, or whatever this chemical is called)

How often and how many times did you test and how many times did you dose copper?

They indicate your test is good for that copper, but from the API manual...

They don't state the accuracy of the kit in the manual, but is 0.3-0.4 ppm actually distinguishable? Without knowing the error rate of the kit, you can't know how close to 0.6 ppm, which Seachem states not to exceed.

Still leaning toward a toxicity issue IMO.