AWC VS no water change systems.

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Devaji

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HEY R2R.
I would love to start a convo about the many ways to reef.
I am interested in having a friendly talk about AWC vs the many no water changes systems out there.

the other day I read about reef moonshine a no water change system using ICP testing and a bunch of additives. I guess its like trition but more controllable.
then there is the Dutch system same same but different ( from my limited understanding )

so the no water change systems seems to use ICP testing and then dose or balance what you tank needs.
where AWC just replenishes all kinda a shotgun approach.

once AWC is up and running it sounds easier and more hands off.
where the many no water change systems are much more hands on.

I think AWC depending on salt used would be cheaper....maybe there is RODI, H20 and salt cost but with the other you have to buy alot of additives more up front cost but cheaper the next few months?

my style of reefing tends to be the natural and KISS type of reefer reading about the no water change systems like reefer moonshine, it makes complete sense on a intellectual level but seems like more work and for more hands on.

so talk to use why you went AWC or no water change system. what system did you go with if not doing water change. how as your experience been?

as of right now I am leaning towards a simple AWC of 1.5 gal or more per day then dosing kalk.
but I am curious about those who run a no water change system. why you went that way when setting up AWC is pretty easy these days. what kind of reefer are you? do you need to tinker? how much work is it? what happens when you go on vaca.?
 
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Fish Think Pink

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HEY R2R.
I would love to start a convo about the many ways to reef.
I am interested in having a friendly talk about AWC vs the many no water changes systems out there.

the other day I read about reef moonshine a no water change system using ICP testing and a bunch of additives. I guess its like trition but more controllable.
then there is the Dutch system same same but different ( from my limited understanding )

so the no water change systems seems to use ICP testing and then dose or balance what you tank needs.
where AWC just replenishes all kinda a shotgun approach.

once AWC is up and running it sounds easier and more hands off.
where the many no water change systems are much more hands on.

I think AWC depending on salt used would be cheaper....maybe there is RODI, H20 and salt cost but with the other you have to buy alot of additives more up front cost but cheaper the next few months?

my style of reefing tends to be the natural and KISS type of reefer reading about the no water change systems like reefer moonshine, it makes complete sense on a intellectual level but seems like more work and for more hands on.

so talk to use why you went AWC or no water change system. what system did you go with if not doing water change. how as your experience been?

as of right now I am leaning towards a simple AWC of 1.5 gal or more per day then dosing kalk.
but I am curious about those who run a no water change system. why you went that way when setting up AWC is pretty easy these days. what kind of reefer are you? do you need to tinker? how much work is it? what happens when you go on vaca.?

I'm also a KISS, but cheap. I do weekly +10% water changes.

My solution is extend hose on sand/gravel cleaner by many, many, many, many feet and letting it drain into outside of house edge of property street/curb rain drain. No heavy lifting and the sand/gravel cleaner from LFS has starter hand pump so easy, easy, easy. Local home improvement store had more clear tubing, clamps, and connectors for putting the lengths of tube together.
 

phillybean

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I do 3.5 gallon AWC a night, recently switched from Reef Crystals to Brightwell NeoMarine. I dose Aquaforest 3 part (not dosing Mag right now or doing the Component 123 set up, but I was before the AWC). I do want to start doing ICP tests as well, likely every 3 months, may start the 123 back up, or switch to a BRS 3 part and run the Red Sea Colors program, I like the Component 123, but doing 500mg of Alk and Calcium a day is getting expensive.
 
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Devaji

Devaji

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I like the idea of no water change but not at the trade off of needed to dose daily. yes one could get 1K worth of dosers and automate the dosing but that seems like alot of failure points?

why i bring this up is I travel some. once a year I take a one month trip out of the US so trying to dailing in my tank so I can be successful for many years.

my tank is a RS650P (170 gal i believe) and will be LPS dom. with softies then a few SPS so "mixed reef" but focus on LPS mostly.

I have never dosed any of my tanks in the past.
 
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phillybean

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I like the idea of no water change but not at the trade off of needed to dose daily. yes one could get 1K worth of dosers and automate the dosing but that seems like alot of failure points?

why i bring this up is I travel some. once a year I take a one month trip out of the US so trying to dailing in my tank so I can be successful for many years.

my tank is a RS650P (170 gal i believe) and will be LPS dom. with softies then a few SPS so "mixed reef" but focus on LPS mostly.

I have never dosed any of my tanks in the past.

It's really to each their own, I am far from an expert, but I do water changes not only to top off whatever micro elements may be low, but also as an export method as well. I think water changes are the best export tool we have available to us. I've always been terrible with water changes and doing 20 gallon changes in my 90 gallon was always a pain in the butt so I didn't do them. On my 220, having them automatic is great, I couldn't imagine doing weekly 20 gallon or monthly 80 gallon changes.

As far as dosing goes, even with mainly LPS, softies and minimal SPS, you are going to need to add at least Alkalinity & Calcium. You might be able to achieve this with Kalk, but as your coral load increases, I believe you will either need to dosing two part or run a calcium reactor. 170 gallon tank that is full of coral will almost certainly consume more Alk & Calcium than top off Kalk alone will be able to provide.

From a travel perspective, although everyone has their own experiences and some have had negative ones, I am very confident in leaving my system with my Apex in control. I have a few extra fail-safes I want to add before my next trip (January, for 2 weeks) but knowing I am going to get an alert if there is a problem is fantastic. It is expensive, but I am a big fan of buying used whenever possible, so I am into my entire set up for a fraction of new price.
 
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Devaji

Devaji

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It's really to each their own, I am far from an expert, but I do water changes not only to top off whatever micro elements may be low, but also as an export method as well. I think water changes are the best export tool we have available to us. I've always been terrible with water changes and doing 20 gallon changes in my 90 gallon was always a pain in the butt so I didn't do them. On my 220, having them automatic is great, I couldn't imagine doing weekly 20 gallon or monthly 80 gallon changes.

As far as dosing goes, even with mainly LPS, softies and minimal SPS, you are going to need to add at least Alkalinity & Calcium. You might be able to achieve this with Kalk, but as your coral load increases, I believe you will either need to dosing two part or run a calcium reactor. 170 gallon tank that is full of coral will almost certainly consume more Alk & Calcium than top off Kalk alone will be able to provide.

From a travel perspective, although everyone has their own experiences and some have had negative ones, I am very confident in leaving my system with my Apex in control. I have a few extra fail-safes I want to add before my next trip (January, for 2 weeks) but knowing I am going to get an alert if there is a problem is fantastic. It is expensive, but I am a big fan of buying used whenever possible, so I am into my entire set up for a fraction of new price.

this is how I feel to. great write up.
I know ppl can have great success with the programs like reef moonshine and other no water change systems but for me I feel setting up a AWC system will work for me.
down the road I can adjust.

I will be dosing kalk slurry at max strength with its own dosing pump not ATO so I am hoping that will take care care of alk and calk. we will see.

that that said I am curious what no water change system other R2R reefers are using what is there daily work , over all cost and experience.
so if your one of those reefers post up some thoughts.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I do not see an AWC system as "competing" with ICP based dosing methodologies since they accomplish quite different things that the other cannot do.

In a perfect world, I'd use both.

AWC removes accumulating ions and organics, while ICP dosing cannot.

ICP based dosing can give control to dropping levels of many trace elements, while AWC cannot always do so.
 

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I do not see an AWC system as "competing" with ICP based dosing methodologies since they accomplish quite different things that the other cannot do.

In a perfect world, I'd use both.

AWC removes accumulating ions and organics, while ICP dosing cannot.

ICP based dosing can give control to dropping levels of many trace elements, while AWC cannot always do so.

That is what I am doing.
Both
Changing 6 gallons a day and dosing 2 part, mag, TM A- and K+
According to my Triton ICP results last week it is spot on.

I made an ATO/AWC system with a Hydros XS controller. Probably the cheapest option out there right now.
 
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Devaji

Devaji

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I do not see an AWC system as "competing" with ICP based dosing methodologies since they accomplish quite different things that the other cannot do.

In a perfect world, I'd use both.

AWC removes accumulating ions and organics, while ICP dosing cannot.

ICP based dosing can give control to dropping levels of many trace elements, while AWC cannot always do so.

good point! my tank is still pretty young so I will start off with AWC and Kalk via it's own dosing pump. once I get more fish and corals I'll get an ICP test and adjust if needed.
 
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Devaji

Devaji

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I use my Apex for 5g per day AWC, dose ATI essentials pro (2 bottles). I don't see why I would want to change that, other than messing with salt types, but that is about it.
how big is your tank? 5 gallon over 24hrs? is the DOS loud?
 
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