Back to the drawing board...ALK and Cal

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Randy,
I just re-read the label and it looks like they finally dropped all those decimal points in their verbiage. If so, then good for them. :)

Regards, GoVols

OK, that was one of their crazinesses. lol
 

GoVols

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OK, that was one of their crazinesses. lol
Just an Fyi...
Last summer I sent them an email and asked them if I used their two part liquids in my 1.5 gallon holding tanks, could I use my Eheim micro pumps at the bottom of my holding tanks to keep the two parts stirred so it would not settle at the bottom. I did this with I AF Comp (1-3).

Within an hour I get a response from them and low and behold it was Jack Kent telling me that he is now running Brightwells. I have no idea about Chris and I sure was not going to ask. :eek:

Anyways Jack felt like the micro pumps would not hurt the product but let him know if I had any issues so he could note it. Well part 2 had no ill effect and stayed stirred up. Part 1 starting off really good but over time it was turning into mush and started to wrap around and also clog up that micro pump. So I had to pull part 1's pump out (and stirred by hand every few days) but always kept running part 2's pump running.

So maybe, Jack has been looking at the product line and is changing some of the ;Wacky wording?????? :D
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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When Jack took over, I pointed out to him some of the most obviously incorrect stuff on the web site, such as the magnesium product claiming more magnesium than could possibly be in it based on the listed ingredients. He fixed that one.

Only way I can figure they got that crazy result was to determine the percentage magnesium in each ingredient, then add those together to get the final percentage of the mixture. lol
 

GoVols

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He fixed that one.
:rolleyes: :D

I used to read the old salt label and figured if they could that kind of accuracy, then they must have been apart of the Apollo moon landings mathematics team. :)
 

Cory

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Have you measured the accuracy of your dosing pump?

For example id time how long it takes to fill a 5 gallon bucket with water. Or a smaller container. If one beats the other, something is wrong.

If you know how to measure the current with a meter you can determine if one is putting less than the other.
 
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revhtree

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I noticed my sand hardening again so I turned off all dosing for a few days. When I noticed my ALK dropping I cut my dosing in half and started back again. Over the last two days my Calcium and ALK has stayed consistent so I think I might have found the sweet spot at 200ml.
 

GoVols

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I noticed my sand hardening again so I turned off all dosing for a few days. When I noticed my ALK dropping I cut my dosing in half and started back again. Over the last two days my Calcium and ALK has stayed consistent so I think I might have found the sweet spot at 200ml.
;Woot
 

James Kanouff

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Several things commonly effect the amount you need to dose. The big factor I think folks forget is C02 from your own mouth highly effects the tanks ability to hold PH and consequently stable ALK levels
I went thru a phase were my C02 was dramatically dropping my Ph in my system, even with saturated KALK in my ATO. This was itself causing precipitation in the pumps to some degree. But when i began to try n dose two part. I found the more I added the more the system seems to need to be dosed to hold the ALK level I was chasing till i was so far from reasonable that i knew i was missing something. basically i was just precipitating my part A into the tank lines pumps n so forth due to the nightly deep suppressed Ph of the tank from co2 and the localized flashing of the product with the water at the point it was being injected. which i tried several places BTW. The tank grew great, looked great but i was just way to much A n B for my size system. 95% of it was just turning to sludge in my tank in various places which i eventually started to notice on the wall of my sump in my pumps in my lines where the doser tubes dosed, etc.
I gave up. and don't dose it anymore in this system and moved my main system to my garage where c02 is not a factor.
Things that help is a target ALK of 6.5-8.5. a ph above 7.75-7.85 no matter what. "my tank sends all sorts of alarms when ph goes this low". cutting the part A n B with 50 % rodi and dosing more often in small amounts in the highest follow area away from pumps or heaters as far as possible like straight in front of a power head in the display.
IMO Anyone over 5 ml per day of traditional pre packaged 2 part, per 100 gallons of system water should question where its going, or be selling frags like crazy. Remember you can only fit so many parts of CA to Alk ratio as well so a Ca level of 550 or higher will limit ALK you can hold in suspension as I under stand it. Especially in lower Ph ranges. There is a good chart for balanced AlK to CA ratio's somewhere. I have it noted on my white board for reference occasionally. low mag levels also will cause issues.
When all else fails, or for those of us who want bag for buck, Remember Increasing water changes fixes nearly everything for most reefers. And its the cheapest way to get back on track.
 

GoVols

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425 -> 200 is pretty dramatic. Enjoying this thread!
Lol,
I'm hoping that he was over dosing the two part which makes your #'s drop and (lol) will turn your sand hard.
I'm enjoying it too but (lol) Rev is probably about to go "banana-split" about right now.
 
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revhtree

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Several things commonly effect the amount you need to dose. The big factor I think folks forget is C02 from your own mouth highly effects the tanks ability to hold PH and consequently stable ALK levels
I went thru a phase were my C02 was dramatically dropping my Ph in my system, even with saturated KALK in my ATO. This was itself causing precipitation in the pumps to some degree. But when i began to try n dose two part. I found the more I added the more the system seems to need to be dosed to hold the ALK level I was chasing till i was so far from reasonable that i knew i was missing something. basically i was just precipitating my part A into the tank lines pumps n so forth due to the nightly deep suppressed Ph of the tank from co2 and the localized flashing of the product with the water at the point it was being injected. which i tried several places BTW. The tank grew great, looked great but i was just way to much A n B for my size system. 95% of it was just turning to sludge in my tank in various places which i eventually started to notice on the wall of my sump in my pumps in my lines where the doser tubes dosed, etc.
I gave up. and don't dose it anymore in this system and moved my main system to my garage where c02 is not a factor.
Things that help is a target ALK of 6.5-8.5. a ph above 7.75-7.85 no matter what. "my tank sends all sorts of alarms when ph goes this low". cutting the part A n B with 50 % rodi and dosing more often in small amounts in the highest follow area away from pumps or heaters as far as possible like straight in front of a power head in the display.
IMO Anyone over 5 ml per day of traditional pre packaged 2 part, per 100 gallons of system water should question where its going, or be selling frags like crazy. Remember you can only fit so many parts of CA to Alk ratio as well so a Ca level of 550 or higher will limit ALK you can hold in suspension as I under stand it. Especially in lower Ph ranges. There is a good chart for balanced AlK to CA ratio's somewhere. I have it noted on my white board for reference occasionally. low mag levels also will cause issues.
When all else fails, or for those of us who want bag for buck, Remember Increasing water changes fixes nearly everything for most reefers. And its the cheapest way to get back on track.

I can't get my PH above 7.65 and yes it's been calibrated! My tank is located in a super air tight basement! I plan to get some fresh air into there just haven't yet.

image.png
 

James Kanouff

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The ph needs to be above 7.75 at night. Better yet never below 7.95. This is your issue. A day or two at 7.70 at 4 am, at worst, will cause some minimal issues. but nightly under that will never work. especially when dosing. if you just stop the dosing and it stabilizes at a low ph. your corals n fish will adjust but growth will be limited. and ALK will as well.

To even remotely resolve the PH, you must ventilate the home of c02 some how. and probably add KALK to your auto water. This will begin to combat the suppressed ph. Which will drastically alter the ALK as well so careful. Do not dose 2 part till you address the PH issue. The 2 are fighting each other. every time you does 2 part you try n raise the ph but the c02 promptly forces it back down again.

Runnign a air line for the skimmer to outside usually helps as well. there are other things like c02 scrubbers for the skimmer line but i find them too much work.

I moved my major corals to my garage where my tank stays over 8.00 at all times. and usually is 8.17-8.30. with kalk in ATO water and a Ca reactor running. If I'm not careful i can go into 8.45-8.5 which then starts a ALK/ precipitation crash scenario.

Are you using Kalk? if not read up on how to do it right. SLO n steady for Kalk is best.
 

Terence

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It is likely you will need to run a co2 scrubber in that environment. A fresh air tube will help, but only so much and that's a very large amount of water. I concur that if you want a good chance on a great tank, your pH should not dip below 7.8 and you should shoot for over 8.0.

This is one key reason why I located my fish room in the free-air flowing area under my house (not a basement). My pH stays between 8.35-8.45 over 24 hours - and I run a calcium reactor.

200ml in a young tank is likely at least 2-3x what is really needed - if not less.
 

Cory

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I can't get my PH above 7.65 and yes it's been calibrated! My tank is located in a super air tight basement! I plan to get some fresh air into there just haven't yet.

image.png

Thats pretty low ph. You need to vent your basement. Co2 can also displace oxygen so that could be a danger too. If your co2 tank blew up and you walked down there you could die of 02 deprivation. It basically pushes the o2 away from the area. Many people have died from this in professional carrers.

Maybe try and run a skimmer line or even just an air pump into the tanks water from outside. Or just hook up a bathroom fan.

As others have said limewater could help in the ato.
 

GoVols

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Since the topic is ph, then slam in a monster air exchanger and be done with it. :)

...Hold on, I'm opening my windows. ;Woot
 

James Kanouff

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Eye candy/ less talk/ more evidence of my opinions n blabber. Top picture is actually the Red sea 250 system grown out that I gave up on, n moved to new garage setup. I'ts totally possible to deal with c02 issues but its a PITA. don't throw in the towel over the dooms day C02 thing. Just understand whats going on and react accordingly.

Btw I have a spray foam insualted 2014 "tight" townhouse. Which is why i had my issues and gave up n moved the major system to the insulted / separated by a breeze way, garage and just dedicated AC to it and its now my fish room.

I have a used ERV system "energy recovery ventalator" but its not installed yet, because I fear The C02 saturated air is not a healthy environment long term for my family and most good Foam insulation installers and AC companies recommend a method of exchanging air in a home that is too "tight"

A bath room fan on 24-7 is a short term fix. But this requires outside unfiltered air to squeeze back in somewhere else. Hence the ERV units nitch in the market.
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TylerS

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